Race Stat Changes

[anthriel]

there just isnt enough magic classes to warrant needing wisdom atm. why be d/e why be ling why be anything but dwarf or horc or saurian. 9 melee classes 2 magic and 1 healer. in a world where magic is only 1/6th relevant its part of the problem. if the roles were reversed so to speak (9 magic casters and only 2 melee units existed) no-one would be horc/saurian/drake. most likely it would be all dwarf currently.

the trade off theory isnt holding up because the scarcity of magic. i say this because 95% of mud players make atleast 1 of every class. that means its 80-85% melee at any given time.
-this makes races seem to suck bad, but the world just isn't 50/50

races like saurian are trading 1 end point for +2 str +2 agi and end up with a character that is successful vs 80+% of the other characters ingame. Lizards are heavy, seems unlikely theyd have anywhere near ling quickness let alone blow a gnome out of the water in the agi department.

take human for example, u can pick horc instead, u lose 1 agility and gain 4 str, 2 end. human wouldn't stand a chance even with max stats. they stand almost no chance vs drake saurian dwarf either. they are a middle of the road race, balanced to be decent at everything. except the trade off is you are only balanced versus magic users(15% of the game).

Oads favor dexterity and high hps. if u have low hps after taking a huge shot and cleric cant heal you full, you risk death next round. in this aspect its just better to select high hps and ensure you survive a quick dbl tap or atleast survivable from 2 shots with 1 heal between. so oads also favor the same preferred races as above especially dwarf.


i think you should just poll players and find out where they think a decent amount of hit points stands. most players would say 1100 hps would be pretty decent. and when they do you start 17 end there and go up from that point.

other:

rangers pet heal should be based off of wisdom so the class can get some magic resistance w/o changing anything else. 15-16 points in wisdom isnt that effective but its way better than none. i like ranger especially after the changes but there is 0 reason to level more than 1 because they all have 0 MR.

edit: in the current gnomes suck vs 95% of other characters. making them impervious to magic only grants them the ability to conquer 15% of the current character pool. it is nowhere near the same thing as letting a melee race dominate 80%. casters should always have that lingering thought in the back of their head, "i can get crushed by a gnome". its the same tradeoff as a horc/saurian with the "imma get incinerated by a barrage of fireballs". lowering the offensive spell damage on gnomes is the counter, would make them win like 6/4 vs other casters, pretty equal do melee's standpoint of str/end vs agility. as of current you might aswell delete the race and add a 3rd race similar to saurian, atleast it would get used.

Methinks Terron makes some insightful/good points - especially regarding why HP is of relatively large importance (ie why Gnomes n Lings are seen as trash) and why middle of the road / balance races are generally not as good as extreme melee races that have no MR (because there's just not enough perceived threat from magic population). Even if a decent magic user does shows up, their low HP prolly still gives the melee expert a good chance at killing them anyway.

And this problem gets even more exacerbated when group fighting comes into play. You'd theoretically think the party of saurians/horcs melee should run at sight of gnome chanters (their theoretical weakness), but reality is the melee races would survive better due to higher HP allowing them to be healed in time and then they would all just focus fire on a single gnome, gnome gets rounded and gnome's party likely loses due to less numbers etc

Given I do agree with quite a few aspects of Terron's assessment (not necessarily the Rangers one tho), I do have some doubts the new proposed changes will fix the underlying issues... However I do applaud at least that they are an attempt to move things in right direction with gnomes/lings getting abit more HP and possibly some enhanced magic in the case of gnome and faster combat cooldown in the case of lings .... This is probably preferable to nothing, provided the changes are implemented in ways that don't erode player goodwill.

[NiteHawk]

I mean for slayers/zerkers/ninjas alot are saurians and HOs right now. Dwarves are probably used as paladins but theres alot more elves, humans, and HEs out there based on current players and what they have (atm). Disagree that everyone uses dwarf though too.

Gnomes with 22 wisdom literally makes killing them with magic a very slow process already. Gnome Sorc is sitting with something like 25-26% hit rate which is already far lower than melees. On top of that they get damage negation for having high wisdom too. So I'm not 100% why that's an issue with them. If anything it's the one thing they got right now.

In the changes, END for sauries and drakes stay around the same while most others get a little boost. This I feel is a good option for balancing. On top of that dwarves are getting lower END to 22 as 23 is probably too high.

I do agree we could use one or two more magic classes in the future though. I think part of the problem too is people need to actively be magic classes too. I think even right now a decent INT sorc can really dish it against saurians and HOs. But I think people really like playing slayers as they probably are more fun cause of the high damage. More classes I suppose will help give more choice in the future and also balancing the current magic classes as well.

Oads favor dexterity and high hps. if u have low hps after taking a huge shot and cleric cant heal you full, you risk death next round. in this aspect its just better to select high hps and ensure you survive a quick dbl tap or atleast survivable from 2 shots with 1 heal between. so oads also favor the same preferred races as above especially dwarf.

That's true. There could be a variation or different OADs to negate this (fast attacker mobs with no high 'alpha' but constantly hit, might be better to be DEX). But the changes coming up will help it out too for lower END classes. Plus AGI updates too.

And this problem gets even more exacerbated when group fighting comes into play. You'd theoretically think the party of saurians/horcs melee should run at sight of gnome chanters (their theoretical weakness), but reality is the melee races would survive better due to higher HP allowing them to be healed in time and then they would all just focus fire on a single gnome, gnome gets rounded and gnome's party likely loses due to less numbers etc

Given I do agree with quite a few aspects of Terron's assessment (not necessarily the Rangers one tho), I do have some doubts the new proposed changes will fix the underlying issues... However I do applaud at least that they are an attempt to move things in right direction with gnomes/lings getting abit more HP and possibly some enhanced magic in the case of gnome and faster combat cooldown in the case of lings .... This is probably preferable to nothing, provided the changes are implemented in ways that don't erode player goodwill.

Yeah the group fighting has it's issues with high END vs lower END. I think ensuring saurians/drakes/HOs shouldn't get too much of a HP change (and they don't with these changes) and it mostly benefits the balance on the lower HP races which is good.

There's also some things to change with magic damage and how it can be changed too, probably for the better that would also help out magic classes be more 'scary' in some cases.

For debuffs, things like SAP etc can be looked at as well. SAP on slayers for example hurts their damage by far a good deal (With 4 str your looking at a 160 damage nerf per BS). Is the duration enough on lower wis races? Probably not right now.

Poison also sucks too duration wise... I think that in application, having long durations for poison means priests will screw up more as a lot of priests are macro warriors, Meaning that if they have DOT, the one damaged will either have to carry antidote potions, be remedied by a priest/pally, or face accidental wastes of AIDs if the priest isn't paying attention.. Which might be a interesting thing to see.

But we can discuss this on the next thing I want to talk about which is mostly to do with spells, damage, duration, and how they work as a whole. I think we can get fancy with some things.

[Terron]

yes a gnome mage is hard to hit with spells, i understand that, but the effect should confer to every gnome. especially other classes. the race has 2 uses currently necro and sorc and the hps detract from both classes making them meager choices at best. in the current state of characters mages might aswell run a flat 10 wisdom and max chr for more hps. mana might suck, but the fact is you only have as much mana as you carry in crystals.

without every gnome class being a good choice versus magic the race has nothing spectacular to offer. the offensive output penalty i purposed alongside the defensive boosts would offset elevating gnome sorcs to very OP but bring the rest of the race inline with a factor that is void in the game currently. a magehunter in theory. a mage hunter shouldnt be a team of wisdomless ninjas and horc slayers 1 shotting crappy mages because of lack of hps. in this case is should be a gnome slayer or decent melee unit with high wisdom that edges them out by sheer will.

the ranger thing makes alot of sense because currently there's no reason to pick anything other than a p p p+1 dump 0 p human/helf unless u want lower hp/slightly stronger pet and never intend to use the class as a main. maybe after agility is changed sure. but the fact remains that every ranger is perceived as a lizard with a pet by sorcs. and even with 15 wisdom its likely to remain, so changing pet heals to wisdom just rounds out the class helping fights vs casters be closer to 3/7 instead of 1/9.

lastly, stop using gamewide stats as a goto evidence folder, just because its been rolled, trained some, and sits there rotting in acct doesn't separate it into an "actually used" category. we have made lots of alts we don't really use. previous perceptions and game character changes make people change ideas or builds. ive seen 1 gnome sorc on in past 4 days and if thats a clear representation for the 56% of mages something is way off. i see mostly humans and elementals. gnomes have no place ingame currently because you wont give them one. trying to fit them in based on stats isnt going to work.

[NiteHawk]

lastly, stop using gamewide stats as a goto evidence folder, just because its been rolled, trained some, and sits there rotting in acct doesn't separate it into an "actually used" category. we have made lots of alts we don't really use. previous perceptions and game character changes make people change ideas or builds. ive seen 1 gnome sorc on in past 4 days and if thats a clear representation for the 56% of mages something is way off. i see mostly humans and elementals. gnomes have no place ingame currently because you wont give them one. trying to fit them in based on stats isnt going to work.

I think gnomes are getting quite a nice boost with the changes, I haven't really said anything to warrant the comment. There is nothing wrong with giving data specially since a good portion of them still seem to be logging in and a lot of people have said they still use their gnomes (as well on this thread).

If the comment was spurred because of this:

I mean for slayers/zerkers/ninjas alot are saurians and HOs right now. Dwarves are probably used as paladins but theres alot more elves, humans, and HEs out there based on current players and what they have (atm). Disagree that everyone uses dwarf though too.

I mean, that's mostly based on what people been saying.

Regardless, you need wisdom to get the most out of MR. Even 16-18 wisdom on a race with boosts is gonna help a lot. I can see adding a set racial bonus if that's what you mean (I.E. minimum MR resistance) which might be a thing but would require balancing the MR again as obviously adding lets say 15% resistance to gnomes would be silly. I could see it like if the current resistance is 30% with 10 wis to 75% at 22wis, then with a minimum you could do 45% at 10 wis to 75% at 22 wis for example instead, so 15% more minimum, but not maximum. I don't think it should be a lot though if we go that route, otherwise wisdom becomes a useless dump stat if you just have high resistance with 10wis.

----

Rodeo was saying something about AGI maybe effecting stamina regen, could be a slight amount but theres probably a big balance issue with that, and then the bonus that lings get would be minimized a good deal when saurians/etc get it as well. I'm not apposed to it though, but I think it might be befitting the wrong races instead of giving individual bonuses probably. Just throwing that idea here since I'm sure people might have ideas too. Though this is probably too big of a change to start with. (Also he was saying something about armor effecting it too but we should probably discuss that elsewhere too.)

[Terron]

it wasnt meant to be conveyed as a negative thing, its just that gamestats dont accurately reflect reality unless there is a way to separate it into current views and usage.

all races need a niche not just gnomes. being the game is mostly melee the horc/saurian niche is clearly working very very well. gnomes niche isnt working unless u play a mage (vs a mage), one of 2 varieties, that when actually chosen youre accepting mediocracy vs the majority of the game. if you factor other classes as a gnome they need increasingly effective magic resistance because their damage is miniscule. it isnt the same as a d/e for instance, because you are getting a major slash to strength(not minor) on top of life(more than any other race) for just a little bit of MR. maybe it could just be flat negation or something, but if it isn't out of the box it wont work.

adding an int isnt changing the factors of oads, group pking, etc its just making them hit lizards a little harder. adding more magic classes would help alot but if it doesnt bring the total magic vs melee around 50/50, all middle of the road/vs. magic specialty type race/class/builds suffer. -60 hps to dwarf +xx to gnome isnt changing much, id still pick dwarf for MR because the comp is better and the penalties way way less.

i really doubt a horc would be used if they had the stat comp of 24 19 17 x x x and that is basically what you are hoping will suffice for a gnome. except gnome has it even worse, only 1 out of 6 characters will likely be "magic", atleast the 17 end horc would have 5/6.

[anthriel]

Interesting idea of rodeo's re out Agi affecting stam refresh - I like out of box thinking - tho I do agree it could make saurians abit scary

Alternatively why not put in a racial "little people" dodge bonus (similar to the monk class bonus) for Lings and gnomes. Biggest complaint re Lings I hear is ppl don't feel they dodge enough (which they attribute then to Agi not being worth it)... Biggest complain re gnomes is they die too easy... So it would help gnomes survive abit more too.... Shrug

Ps - I do like NH's ideas re making poison DoT better to make things more interesting with priests etc and I look forward to next topic regarding how magic works

[Lateralus]

I think making int matter a bit more on healing opens up gnomes to being used as clerics as well. I dont think gnomes are bad and I think they will be a lot better by gaining 1int and 50 some hp. They are not bad now they just seemed to take a hit with the loss of pen the extra damage ac and golem power that int will add will help even if it is minor. I have a gnome chanter and admit it took a hit on pen but it can still hold its own.

I dont agree that each class needs to have a go to race. I dont think gnomes need to outshine elves and thats why i dont feel like they need anymore than what they are already getting.

also I think there are plans to add more classes down the road. I wouldn't be surprised to see a summoner type in the near future.


Races were really never too unbalanced (besides maybe halfling being a bit weak) thats why i think we are very close if not there with these minor changes. I dont think we have a losing formula the game is fun and rather balanced I dont think we need to go overboard and totally reshape the game.

[Terron]

did i miss something or is gnome chanter the only gnome available? its not. 11/12 gnome builds outright suck regardless of stat comp and a gnome chanter can hold its own so the race is fine. its not.

gnomes don't need to outshine elves at all (they arent even sorcerers they tell jokes, keep beetles as pets and ride around on squirrels and rabbits. the greed for power isnt in them lol) also a relative 720 year life span vs an immortal. you can only name 3 games ever in which they even compete with elves in a mage position. nightmist where 1 dex was immensely op in the level 30 cap days, rok, and this one. i can name dozens that have gnomes less powerful than elves but the magical defense aspect on those gnomes is like a flag "dont fk with me mage". the others take a dnd route and make gnomes like small fat dwarves that tinker machines and contraptions. those games have a much better depiction and use for gnome race because the whole race succeeds with it not 2/12 classes only when pit against the same 2/12 classes.

im unsure why anyone would think 50 hps and 1 more int will help the race. it may help a chanter a small amount. hell u can elect no wisdom and max chr and get those 50 hps anyway and it still doesnt help. the problem with gnomes isnt offensive spells. their mages already do damage, they just don't last long enough to appreciate it. the race is supposed to be quick little fkers that humans cant grab while irritated because of the gnomes harassing them with pranks and jokes. the ones on here are like ornamental garden gnomes, they just sit there with their frail ceramic shell waiting for a treelimb to fall on them so the humans can toss em in the trash. 21 agi 17 end is the reason. 23 agility with a +1 is almost a necessity. id much rather have +1 agi than an int.

when the game is 10 melee classes, 10 magic classes, and 1-2 healers gnomes wont suck as much and lizards will have to hide like a gnome because half the players online will sling 200s at them at will, until then gnomes either need a huge racial or an unrealistic stat comp to be successful.

1) add the agility fix, compile some statistics, tweaq it
2) start pumping out magical classes to even the score.
(makes gnomes and countless other middle of the road races versatile instead of crap or crappier)
3) fix the stat comps that arent working(most of them will go bye-bye with magic being prevalent)
4) add a couple races that fit the stat comp voids(especially a high agi, high end, low damage output race)

[Folder]

God damn it Terron. Ya made me do it.

did i miss something or is gnome chanter the only gnome available? its not. 11/12 gnome builds outright suck regardless of stat comp and a gnome chanter can hold its own so the race is fine. its not.

Gnomes are not meant to be pure melee (AND THIS IS OK!), they currently can be successful sorcs, necros, and elders. They are fine thieves as well, but nearly any race can do that. Clerics are debatable but people do use them (and when we look into INT for heals this will be a good thing for gnomes). I fought a gnome guard tonight who did just fine (check the diversity, it has a huge mana pool and does well in no pot situations).

gnomes don't need to outshine elves at all (they arent even sorcerers they tell jokes, keep beetles as pets and ride around on squirrels and rabbits. the greed for power isnt in them lol) also a relative 720 year life span vs an immortal. you can only name 3 games ever in which they even compete with elves in a mage position.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Your DnD game has nothing to do with Ember. Elves are fake. We can make elves have 4000 str if we want because they are not real and this is a fantasy game.

im unsure why anyone would think 50 hps and 1 more int will help the race.

You don't play this game. 50 HP is a big difference in all aspects of the game. How does adding int NOT help the race? Your argument here I just don't even. 1 INT is what? 6-8 damage per spell cast? It's a pretty big deal.

they just don't last long enough to appreciate it.

Hey I agree with this one. Hence the HP boost.

the race is supposed to be quick little fkers that humans cant grab while irritated because of the gnomes harassing them with pranks and jokes.

Stahp.

23 agility with a +1 is almost a necessity. id much rather have +1 agi than an int.

2.25% more dodge is not a necessity. Sure it helps of course but the 50HP, or whatever it is, boost helps more.

when the game is 10 melee classes, 10 magic classes, and 1-2 healers gnomes wont suck as much and lizards will have to hide

More classes would be great, it'll happen. We can balance races in the meantime. Lizards and Orcs do fear gnomes already, and I know you don't actually play the game so you don't see this. You'll just have to trust me here I guess. There's a reason we can win fights when outnumbered, do you know what it is? It's chanters. Gnomes and elves.

1) add the agility fix, compile some statistics, tweaq it
2) start pumping out magical classes to even the score.
(makes gnomes and countless other middle of the road races versatile instead of crap or crappier)
3) fix the stat comps that arent working(most of them will go bye-bye with magic being prevalent)
4) add a couple races that fit the stat comp voids(especially a high agi, high end, low damage output race)

1) Obviously being done.
2) In time.
3) Not sure what you mean here? Do you think people will not use lizards and orcs when there are more magic classes? I'm going to guess they still will be used. We're throwing darts here though, as far as I know neither of us has a crystal ball.
4) So you want, what? a 23 agi 23 end race that just...what does it do exactly? It can't be a healer with stats like that, and who wants to play a dps that does not dps well? I'm confused on this one.

I'm sure this comes off a little salty, and frankly it is. You haven't been here for many months and you jump in like you know the game better than people that have been playing it daily. It's presumptuous at best.

[Terron]

youre not salty. its not like it matters its a game input is input.

1) gnomes shouldnt be melee you are correct. however if someone does choose gnome for melee they should survive magic better than every other race by far and doesn't it isn't impactful. mostly because their damage and life sucks, they just don't last.

2) it is purely fantasy and any race can have whatever stats nitehawk wants, however with that stat composition what the race is good at is dieing. they even suck training at low levels being so gd frail (currently im contemplating asking if the necromancer's pet can be changed from zombie to dead gnome.)

3) i do play the game casually. i probably wont play it full throttle until all character inadequacies(most anyway) are fixed. (example: i made an elemental paladin that laughably tanked multiple sorcs even at level 19, come back a few months later and it gets hit 3x as often and for 32 more damage. wastes of time i tend to avoid. its like pre-ordering xbox games so they get you 3 more times with dlc. just buy it later u get all 4 for 15 bucks) 50 hps puts them at just about the same useless hps. +1 int puts them...just about the same, a frying pan for lizards. good fix, you did nothing. very impressive.

4) ofc people will still use lizards with more magic around theyll just die more like the people that use d/e human and ling. currently its a pretty even mix of characters logged ingame thats actually amazing from a gaming standpoint. its just time to even the odds.

5) you have what you call a good fight with a gnome guard and don't want an entire race of defense, i was thinking more like 16 22 22 17 21 18 but its whatever.

6) you are hoping better heals makes you chose a gnome clerics 21 agi and sub 1100 hps. hp and dodge combined are so low ud die at oads way easier than anything else. gnome cleric cant even survive a dbl tap when they get a heal off in between. best oad cleric is human (potion timer is like free stamina) with a few points off of wis and as much chr as possible(odd). why odd? well 2 points in chr adds 1 starting hp every odd number allows a chance at +1 hp gain every level. 21 chr is up to 6 hps and mana extra every gain makes wis irrelevant unless 1v1 pvp. losing 200 mana on your bar doesnt matter you cant oad with 1 bar of mana anyway. ive made plenty of characters to figure that out.

7) i went oading with you guys for a couple months when refinery was new, 8 trips to the purple fker and beyond and 5 out of 5 times we failed my character was the last one alive, stabbing boss for 2-3 minutes all alone. why? 23 agi 20 end and as much bonus hps from chr as i could afford. dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge ouch pot dodge dodge pot drake ninja's rule!! you get it. guess i was smart enough to gather that from just game data my first crit is the best melee oader available. 50 hps is not better than an agility especially with the static dodge gain and oppositions penalty this game offers.

8) bed time