Taunt & Shield Bash - Knights

[Folder]

Knight: Needed EXP to Level 25: 300mil
Paladin: Needed EXP to Level 25: 300mil

It doesn't defeat the purpose of the class. It is strong but it is too strong probably. Its for the same reason that Knights shouldnt be getting hit 9/10 times with taunt and 20 charisma haha.

Off topic but if guards don't have 100% protect I'll never play mine again, it would entirely defeat the purpose of the class.

I have another concern about shield bash and that's 2h weapons. Is 1h + shield bash going to bring their damage inline with a 2hander? Obviously that would mean no point to 2 handers. I don't really see the need to buff knight 1h damage when they can go 2h if they want more dps, it seems a bit much for one class no?

I do like shield bash but if cavs get more hp, higher hit rate, taunt, 2h, bash, high base damage, low xp to level...it's an awful lot you know?

Keep in mind that the class is getting changed. If you say it like that, I could say that Paladins get Protect(targeted taunt to everything), healing, pretty much the same damage, EASIER to level because of spells, better MR, better search/resistance to rob, and the same exp requirement as Cavs. You have to keep in mind that Guard is a 100% chance always, Knights don't have the opportunity to protect players from other players, and they will only have a CHANCE to take hits based on charisma which they will max and not have points to put in Wisdom for magic resistance. I'm sure that the high dmg is only because of using a 2hander..and that's cool if that's the way they choose to go imo. Sword/board is obviously going to be lower because you are gaining dmg mitigation, but it also requires you to deflect to shield bash so it's based off a chance anyways(which requires you to take dmg). I am still curious as to whether it is a stamina point or free action though. If it costs a stamina point but only does half of your damage...does that mean its 100% hit rate? Otherwise it wouldn't ever be worth it to shield bash over a regular attack.

It can't cost a stamina point imo because we're spending most of fights exhausted and that would just be goofy.

We can disagree on if you think making protect not 100% breaks the class, but I think it does. The other stuff - Cavs hit harder (higher base dmg), hit more (bonus hit rate) and level faster because of that. Paladin may level more efficiently (in terms of gold) if you are using heals, but it's not faster or even the same as knights. So yes it's fair to say knights have a lower xp requirement because while the end number is the same a knight will get there faster.

Also you, arguably, can ignore INT on a knight so you'll still have good WIS and CHR. You can ignore CHR on a paladin as well but of course you're losing HP/MP when doing so.

Anyways shield bash should be a percentage to proc maybe? If we don't want it to be op and ruin 2hander damage by surpassing it. 2hander is 10% more damage, shield bash right now sounds like it could increase damage by more than 10% in the right situation which would defeat the purpose of 2handing.

[Honzo]

We can disagree on if you think making protect not 100% breaks the class, but I think it does. The other stuff - Cavs hit harder (higher base dmg), hit more (bonus hit rate) and level faster because of that. Paladin may level more efficiently (in terms of gold) if you are using heals, but it's not faster or even the same as knights. So yes it's fair to say knights have a lower xp requirement because while the end number is the same a knight will get there faster.

Not everyone is going to agree on everything, it's about hearing each others opinions that counts! I'm talking about leveling faster due to their ability to kill undead. Doesn't this make their leveling process go a lot easier/faster as well as Clerics? Your point was that Cavs get an "awful lot" already but when put in comparison to Paladins it seems like it doesn't. Paladins get spells, Cavs don't. Paladins can autoprotect someone(even in pvp), Cavs get a chance at protecting everyone from monsters in PVE, the dmg difference seems highly negligible. Paladins get smite and heal so Cavs get extra hit rate and health to help them level. The argument could be said opposite of yours. Its not fair to say knights have a lower exp requirement, it just makes them more gold efficient because they'll be able to kill something in a decent time without having to chug tons of pots since they can't heal.

Also you, arguably, can ignore INT on a knight so you'll still have good WIS and CHR. You can ignore CHR on a paladin as well but of course you're losing HP/MP when doing so.

As far as stat allocation goes, you need to max str, agility, endurance and put as much in charisma as possible. What's the best case scenario with this?
Cavalier
Human: 20 20 20 10 16 20 (not +1, 11 wis with +1 and 10 int)
Saurian: 22 22 19 11 14 14 (10 int 10 wisdom with a +1 stat)
Halfling: 18 23 17 10 16 22(10 int 16 wisdom, seems okay I suppose based on race. Still not +1 stat)
Half Orc: 24 19 22 10 14 14 (10 int, 13 charisma with +1)
Half Elf : 19 21 19 10 16 21 (10 int, 11 wisdom with +1 stat)
Goblin: 19 22 20 10 17 14 (10 int 12 wisdom with +1 stat)
Gnome: No reason to go over it
Elemental: No reason to go over it
Elf: 18 22 18 10 16 22 (10 int 11 wisdom with +1 stat)
Dwarf: 20 19 23 10 17 16 (12 wisdom with +1 stat)
Drakeblood: 21 22 20 10 10 20 (10 int/wis 15 charisma with +1 stat)
Dark Elf: 20 22 18 10 20 15 (10 int/15 wisdom with +1 stat)

To be an effective tank you're going to need a lot of charisma. If 50% taunt happens at 20 Charisma then anything lower isn't going to be worth wasting points in. That being said it will generally always leave you with 10 int, and very low wisdom so you don't get the huge disadvantage of not using a +1 stat.

Guardian
Human: 20 20 20 16 20 10 (Without a +1)
Saurian: 22 22 19 14 14 11 (Without +1)
Halfling: 18 23 17 18 20 10 (Without +1)
Half Orc: 24 19 22 14 14 10 (Without +1)
Half Elf: 19 21 19 17 20 10 (Without +1)
Goblin: 19 22 20 14 17 10 (Without +1)
Gnome: No real reason to go over it
Elemental: No real reason to go over it
Elf: 18 22 18 17 21 10 (Without +1)
Dwarf: 20 19 23 13 20 10 (Without +1)
Drakeblood: No real need to go over it.
Dark Elf: 20 22 18 15 20 10 (Without +1)

Charisma bonuses:
10 charisma: 0 HP -- 0 MP
11 charisma: 0-1HP -- 0 MP
12 charisma: 0-1HP -- 0-1 MP
13 charisma: 1-2HP -- 0-1 MP
14 charisma: 1-2HP -- 0-2 MP
15 charisma: 1-3HP -- 0-2 MP
16 charisma: 1-3HP -- 1-2 MP
17 charisma: 2-4HP -- 1-2 MP
18 charisma: 2-4HP -- 1-3 MP
19 charisma: 2-5HP -- 1-3 MP
20 charisma: 2-5HP -- 2-3 MP
21 charisma: 3-6HP -- 2-3 MP
22 charisma: 3-6HP -- 2-4 MP
23 charisma: 3-7HP -- 2-4 MP

Without Charisma paladins -seem- fine, without charisma cavs are screwed. I hope this just helps showcase my point a little bit better. Charisma benefits are very minor until 17 Charisma when you are AT LEAST gaining 50 hp and 25 mana. 50 hp for 7 charisma doesn't seem worth it at all if you don't need it when you can protect without it and can dump it to have good MR and good spells. Paladins generally have the option to either +1 or not. Tanks kind of don't have a choice since they have so many main stats already. Without that Charisma their taunt will blow and there just aren't any more stats left to allocate. Both classes will always need str/agi/end. It's just that Paladins are more capable of spending and divide their points due to them not needing Charisma for anything. Charisma doesn't give bonuses outside of some hp to Cavs and making their actual taunt skill worth it. Even if those 10 points that would go in Charisma to give you a potential of 50-250 hp you still have to sacrifice somewhere. Those 10 points could even go 4 int 6 wisdom on a Paladin and it would be much more beneficial - you pretty much just get 10 more points for free for being a Paladin.

[NiteHawk]

I'm not sure why you think +1'ing is needed on a cavalier. +1ing probably won't make you the best tank that's correct. You sacrifice for a reason. You expect to be good at everything when +1ing? If you are making a tanky character, I would highly suggest not +1ing. If you are making a more specific character, then you can, but expect you will miss out on something else.

I think comparing a knight to +1 vs a paladin to not +1 is incorrect too. Both should +1, or both should -1 in the examples per race. If you +1 on a paladin you will find the same struggles as a knight. Except INT is more important, a cavalier doesn't NEED to be a tank. You can use instead a saurian. I also disagree with charisma being needed on pallies. It helps, but not needed. It won't make or break things, its just a nice gift.

Knights can have various roles. Want DPS/AGI? Use a saurian for example. But don't expect taunt to work as good as it does. /taunt still gives a decent amount of passive resists at lower charisma, but I don't think that just because you have 14-16 charisma classes that it should be great. It's like picking a lower INT class for a spell caster, except at least cavaliers hold up on their own without taunt. They are quite tough targets.

I feel like having 70% taunt at 20 charisma is because you expect that with 14 charisma it will still be diverting alot of attacks, and I don't think this should be the exact case. It gives reason to use other classes this way. The lower charisma classes shouldn't be good at everything.

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Protect will never be not 100%. If anything you adjust the dodge/MR rates of it, not the block percentage. I think it ruins guardians to be honest, so I don't think this will change.

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Shield Bash would be the final value of what you typically attack. It doesn't need to be half damage, it could be quarter damage. So if you attack between 100-150 damage, the shield bash would do 50-75 damage at half. OR 25-50 damage. I think it would be okay, but the damage would have to be scaled.

I think no, two handers at 10% will be more damage regardless. Shields are going to be a max of probably 16-18% deflect, and the damage above doesn't reflect the 10% damage you get from two handers. 10% damage is a set damage, you can rely on it. Shield bash is not. Shield bash will have less purpose in smaller fights I would say.

Shield bash at maximum will activate 16-18% of the time with the best shield. So out of 500 attacks dealt on you, shield bash would activate an average of 90 with 18%. Basing it off DPS charts before, its probably 90 average damage, so 8100 damage lets say in 500..

If you have 180 damage average, then 10% would be 18 damage. In 500 attacks, that is 9000 damage. However, this is FOCUSED damage too. Shield bash is random, and depends on who you attack. Still, if the numbers feel high on shield bash, then it can simply be reduced and still be formidable. I don't think it's a very hard thing to balance.

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Scaling, something like this in a party of 6 (One being you). please remember there are going to be dupes here, simply because you cannot have 0.2 of a copy, each time you are 'copied' it takes up a value of 1, regardless. This is just an example so far.

10 char: 20% (1 copies of you + you)
13 char: 30% (2 copies of you + you)
16 char: 40% (3 copies of you + you)
19 char: 50% (4 copies of you + you)
22 char: 60% (5 copies of you + you)

Obviously regardless more charisma = more passive damage absorption in any level.


In other games, taunt only lasts a few seconds. In our game, taunt lasts quite awhile. Maybe that is the biggest issue, I don't know. But I feel like knights can be used to soak up ALL damage and make no threat to anyone else though, so something needs to be adjusted

How long should taunt last on top of this anyways?

[Folder]

Ok, I like that CHR scaling. I think you're right that knights should not be able to +1 and still be best at everything. Once you do this change I would expect to see more high CHR knights, unless they are purely for pvp.

We just need to be careful with shield bash damage is all I'm saying. I get that it's a small %, just something to make sure we balance out. I'm still not quite convinced using a 2hander for 10% more damage is worth it but we'll see how that plays out...I don't really see anyone doing that right now but maybe they haven't really tried it.

I think taunt duration is fine, it just needed to be balanced around CHR so that knights have more reason to use it. Also please for the love of bunnies can we get the text when your taunt ends to be purple like it when you start taunt? It gets lost very easily.

[Honzo]

I'm not sure why you think +1'ing is needed on a cavalier. +1ing probably won't make you the best tank that's correct. You sacrifice for a reason. You expect to be good at everything when +1ing? If you are making a tanky character, I would highly suggest not +1ing. If you are making a more specific character, then you can, but expect you will miss out on something else.

I think comparing a knight to +1 vs a paladin to not +1 is incorrect too. Both should +1, or both should -1 in the examples per race. If you +1 on a paladin you will find the same struggles as a knight. Except INT is more important, a cavalier doesn't NEED to be a tank. You can use instead a saurian. I also disagree with charisma being needed on pallies. It helps, but not needed. It won't make or break things, its just a nice gift.

Oh I was just literally asking best case scenario XD. They were all values without +1 to begin with..I just wanted to put them all out there to see which ones had access to 20+ charisma and decent stats. I should've said that they can't +1 because they require a lot of stats, I'm sorry. I know they don't have to be a tank, I just forgot to think about it that way cuz I'm a damn dummy!

I feel like having 70% taunt at 20 charisma is because you expect that with 14 charisma it will still be diverting alot of attacks, and I don't think this should be the exact case. It gives reason to use other classes this way. The lower charisma classes shouldn't be good at everything.

Bad communication on my part again. I think it's better for them to have the taunt be good at higher level because it will encourage them to take Charisma for taunt and for hp purposes. I agree that if they don't have good charisma they shouldn't be able to tank well. It's one of their core stats regardless for the DR. Do you think the DR starts too high at 7.5% with 10 charisma?

Protect will never be not 100%. If anything you adjust the dodge/MR rates of it, not the block percentage. I think it ruins guardians to be honest, so I don't think this will change.

Ohhh okay I see. If it needs to be nerfed you can just up the rates, got it. What is Guardian dodge like now that you fixed the mishap with MR/Dodge?

Shield Bash would be the final value of what you typically attack. It doesn't need to be half damage, it could be quarter damage. So if you attack between 100-150 damage, the shield bash would do 50-75 damage at half. OR 25-50 damage. I think it would be okay, but the damage would have to be scaled.

I think no, two handers at 10% will be more damage regardless. Shields are going to be a max of probably 16-18% deflect, and the damage above doesn't reflect the 10% damage you get from two handers. 10% damage is a set damage, you can rely on it. Shield bash is not. Shield bash will have less purpose in smaller fights I would say.

Shield bash at maximum will activate 16-18% of the time with the best shield. So out of 500 attacks dealt on you, shield bash would activate an average of 90 with 18%. Basing it off DPS charts before, its probably 90 average damage, so 8100 damage lets say in 500..

If you have 180 damage average, then 10% would be 18 damage. In 500 attacks, that is 9000 damage. However, this is FOCUSED damage too. Shield bash is random, and depends on who you attack. Still, if the numbers feel high on shield bash, then it can simply be reduced and still be formidable. I don't think it's a very hard thing to balance.

The OAD dmg for cavs you posted was with 2handers I assume right? If you put the sword/board on will it be closer to what the paladin dmg is that you put? The shield bash action sounds interesting for sure! Giving shields different dmgs is pretty sweet too! Will the dmg be enhanced by enchantments?

Scaling, something like this in a party of 6 (One being you). please remember there are going to be dupes here, simply because you cannot have 0.2 of a copy, each time you are 'copied' it takes up a value of 1, regardless. This is just an example so far.

10 char: 20% (1 copies of you + you)
13 char: 30% (2 copies of you + you)
16 char: 40% (3 copies of you + you)
19 char: 50% (4 copies of you + you)
22 char: 60% (5 copies of you + you)

Obviously regardless more charisma = more passive damage absorption in any level.


In other games, taunt only lasts a few seconds. In our game, taunt lasts quite awhile. Maybe that is the biggest issue, I don't know. But I feel like knights can be used to soak up ALL damage and make no threat to anyone else though, so something needs to be adjusted

How long should taunt last on top of this anyways?

Since it requires an action it should probably last for a little bit right? Is there a way to make the duration scale with Charisma amount?
With your chart would that make Taunt have a 55% chance to be targeted with 20 charisma? Still seems rock solid!

Ok, I like that CHR scaling. I think you're right that knights should not be able to +1 and still be best at everything. Once you do this change I would expect to see more high CHR knights, unless they are purely for pvp.

We just need to be careful with shield bash damage is all I'm saying. I get that it's a small %, just something to make sure we balance out. I'm still not quite convinced using a 2hander for 10% more damage is worth it but we'll see how that plays out...I don't really see anyone doing that right now but maybe they haven't really tried it.

I think taunt duration is fine, it just needed to be balanced around CHR so that knights have more reason to use it. Also please for the love of bunnies can we get the text when your taunt ends to be purple like it when you start taunt? It gets lost very easily.

Very fair. Especially with all the changes happening. I highly advocate for them being rewarded for using Charisma, I just got lost in a rant earlier. I forgot about Cavs just being a dps class instead of a tank, Sorry Foldy! Lub j00. The message for showing when taunt ends definitely would be sexy for claritys sake.

[NiteHawk]

Bad communication on my part again. I think it's better for them to have the taunt be good at higher level because it will encourage them to take Charisma for taunt and for hp purposes. I agree that if they don't have good charisma they shouldn't be able to tank well. It's one of their core stats regardless for the DR. Do you think the DR starts too high at 7.5% with 10 charisma?

I'm not sure. Right now it is 10 charisma for 7.5, and then 15% for 20 charisma. It's an overall too, Magic and Physical. I mean it could start at 5% instead but I think 5% could be minimum. (Would end at same 15% result at 20 charisma, obviously little more with 22/23.

Ohhh okay I see. If it needs to be nerfed you can just up the rates, got it. What is Guardian dodge like now that you fixed the mishap with MR/Dodge?

It's going to be 5% dodge (-1agi around average) and -10% MR resistances.

The OAD dmg for cavs you posted was with 2handers I assume right? If you put the sword/board on will it be closer to what the paladin dmg is that you put? The shield bash action sounds interesting for sure! Giving shields different dmgs is pretty sweet too! Will the dmg be enhanced by enchantments?

Well was just an example number. Can go with higher or lower damage, the actual results of % of damage will always be the same, thus the % of damage for 2 hander vs 1 hander and shield will always be the same as long as the shields end up at 18, which they should.

If a 20 str cavalier does 167-224, than a paladin should do 150-201. Paladins are byfar not a terrible class. They will also most likely get holy weapons in the near future.




Since we have more of a gameplan with this, let's talk about duration. I think taunt maybe should be a set time rather then set on charisma. I think the tank amount and tank 'clones' are enough. I'm not sure what it is now, but what would people think is a good 'taunt' time. 1 minute? 30 seconds? Yeah, it is low, it's meant to be low. otherwise its too op in PVE.

[Folder]

+1 for reducing taunt dmg reduction to 5% minimum.

Taunt duration is based on CHR right now? 1 minute sounds about right to me, not crazy long but not so short you're always recasting it.

[Honzo]

+1 for reducing taunt dmg reduction to 5% minimum.

Taunt duration is based on CHR right now? 1 minute sounds about right to me, not crazy long but not so short you're always recasting it.

I'm not sure. Right now it is 10 charisma for 7.5, and then 15% for 20 charisma. It's an overall too, Magic and Physical. I mean it could start at 5% instead but I think 5% could be minimum. (Would end at same 15% result at 20 charisma, obviously little more with 22/23.

I think this sounds great!! 5% starting scaling to 15% sounds great, just another reason to choose to go tank instead of dps! I am liking how the classes are shaping up with different playstyles within the class. Duration being 1 minute is what I was thinking but then I remembered you said something like 34 actions per minute right? So maybe it would be good to do 1.30m so that way it can be around every 50 attacks?

[NiteHawk]

Taunt: I added the adjustments above, however it is not level based now. It is only charisma based. The numbers are far too low to really do anything with level. The duration is still level based though. The duration is still between 50-80 seconds at level 25 based on charisma. (This was not changed, not sure if it needs to be, let me know guys.

As specified it is:

10 char: 20% (1 copies of you + you)
13 char: 30% (2 copies of you + you)
16 char: 40% (3 copies of you + you)
19 char: 50% (4 copies of you + you)
22 char: 60% (5 copies of you + you)

On top of this, /taunt now scales differently too in terms of damage negated. 10 charisma is 5% instead of 7.5%. 20 charisma is still 15%, and 23 charisma is around 18% which is a little higher, but should be OK.

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Shield Bash: Added too. Some things to note how it works on a cavalier.

1. It activates when your shield blocks.
2. It deals half your damage to that player if you were attacking the player. It does account for armor, divinity, bonuses, etc.
3. If a guardian is protecting the person that is being shield bashed, the guardian ALWAYS blocks it. It shuts down your shield bash, basically.
4. Shield bashing reduces the dodge rate to 5%, but their armor still can absorb or deflect it. So the dodge chance is very low, but armor rate is the same.
5. If two knights are fighting, there is a chance that they'll shield bash back and forth once or twice. I kind of like that idea, so I left it. I doubt it will be a thing often anyways. We'll see how it works. Generally the shield bash is actually an attack.


Obv both aren't in yet.

[Folder]

Time to put CHR back on my drakeblood knight.