New ideas for alterations of races and classes

[Thi]

What I am proposing to change here based on initial statement, comments and what I feel myself.

Racial:
Dwarf: +1 int, +2ac.. Also will give them a 10% cooldown bonus I think.
Elemental: +2% resist, +5 more damage negated (It's set damage not percentage but yeah.)
Elf: +2% resist, 15% fizzle reduction.
Gnome: +5% resist, -1 end, -1 stat point, 10% more mana.
Goblin: +2% resist
HE: +3% resist, 10% fizzle reduction.
Ling: +1% resist, 0.5 stamina second speed bonus. (to test anyways.)
Human: 5% fizzle reduction.

Classes:
Barb: -10MR bonus, 5% less dodge rate (up by 2.5%), 10% more HP (2.5% more), +5% rage damage bonus, -1% less per rage, instead of 2%.
Druid: -8.5% dodge rate. Adjust morph to compensate for the loss.This equates to about 2AGI.
Monk: 5% dodge rate (down -2.5), however, roundhouse deals 2.5x damage now. Meditate skill.Similar to druids but self only.
Necro: +2.5% more MR Bonus. (Leech was adjusted recently, plus with the new skill you should be draining more already.)
Paladin: 5% less dodge in /protect, but 5% more MR, so will balance itself out to 10%/10%.
Ranger: +1% MR bonus
Sorc: Adjust starting attacks.
Thief: Going to add duel wield. They'll do 20% less damage then assassins in the typical case.

Maybe +1 attacks to all. I feel like it should be a good limit there. I'm still wondering how people feel about a extra attack at higher levels, aka everyone would get +5 attacks at level 25. (obv ninjas get +6). Worried about damage though but we'll see. If no one comments about it I will attempt to add this.

This is based on the information provided, feedback, and my own knowledge. Thanks.

Dwarf - OK for the changes;
Elemental - OK for the changes;
Gnome - I'm against the changes, I"d say they are good the way they are right now, maybe as a racial trait up the mana pool;
Goblin - OK for the changes;
HE - OK for the changes;
Ling - OK for the changes; Doesn't seem to make much of a difference; I'd still invest a bit more into the whole squishynes / agility side of it, meaning more dodge / stamina / hit rate as options, I kinda think dodge would still be the favorable one since they are small and harder to hit.
Human - Hm. I don't think the fizzle reduction makes sense from a lore perspective, that's why I'd give Elves which are magically inclined;

Barb - OK for the changes;
Druid - OK for the changes;
Monk - OK for the changes; Meditate <3
Paladin - Not OK, I'd fully remove the agi loss upon /protecting, honestly, I don't see the need to balance that out;
Ranger - OK for the changes;
Sorc - OK for the changes;
Thief - OK for the changes;

As for lings not being played too much, it's because they don't excel in many things, meaning, they don't have the overall highest magic aptitude nor fighting prowess compared to other races (stat wise) and unlike Rok they don't significant dodge more than others, it's a small margin, so in theory people are picking highest output in spell/strength as opposed to them since they have low HP as 25s.

Disclaimer: I own a 25 Ling Guardian, so, I'm trying to not be biased and hopefully make it more fun to play.

[Folder]

Gnomes already do the most damage of any caster. If people feel, and can provide some data to back it up, that caster damage is low then ok sure. But they do top damage now, adding more damage just because seems weird to me (if anything I think 22 agi sounds better on gnomes than 23 int). If we think Ele doesn't need an extra agi that's fine. I just don't see many Ele casters running around and I'd guess it's because of the low agi.

If they are the WORST physical they should be the BEST magical. What constitutes the best though? Just the intelligence score? Doesn't seem right to me. This game is a combination of stats to be good - ALWAYS AGILITY/ENDURANCE/(X STAT, STR FOR PHYS, INT FOR MAGIC). You yourself even said that Elves have pretty much replaced Gnomes. Why not go 22 int Elf and have better agi, endurance, and same wisdom? You just lose 1 int but gain tons of survivability. You just cant assume that because it can deal the most dmg its overpowered, it has to LIVE first to do the dmg.

I didn't say elves have replaced gnomes. I said MAYBE people would pick them over a gnome, huge difference there. You can say 22 int elf, but then you can be a 23 int gnome so it equalizes itself there. That extra INT does make a difference. Do you see any elf casters right now?

Forgot about this as well, I think he's right. Why do they need MORE MR when they are already gonna be beefy with higher wisdom? That being said, I guess it's possible this is a buff to those paladins that went MORE intelligence and LESS wisdom for better heals and worse mana/MR.

The gaining of 5% MR is very much out weighed by 5% less dodge. It's not worth protecting someone when they will take less damage than you. The whole point is to guard, output lower damage, and be more difficult to kill than the original target right? We're shifting it to where people will actually want paladins to be guarding so they can be killed easier.

I was talking to Folder about Guards and Cavs earlier. Is there some way that you could consolidate the guard mechanic in to ONE class(Cav) to open up more of a Holy Warrior role for the paladin? In my opinion it makes sense given that they get extra hp and can taunt already. It'd just give them an ability to solidify them as the official TANKER role. It was pointed out that 4 classes can heal. So 1 main healer, the cleric, and 3 hybrids (Bard/Druid/Paladin). Could lower the cav dmg and buff up the Paladin dmg by perhaps adding a HOLY SMITE spell or something like that which could increase X amounts of attacks/rounds(Think old druid morph, gained power from your diety instead though for a short time and lose it after a while) and transfer the 2 hander capability over to paladins.

This game very much wants the trinity. Yes, I know that hybrid can heal for minor amounts but Clerics are the only ones who can sustain massive healing of a party. By allowing Cavs to become the tank class it can finally feel conceptually correct. It seems thats the direction you've been pushing them in anyways. Just a few ideas to mull over. ^_^ Thanks again yall!

It's an interesting idea and I get the concept of it, but I think at the end of the day you're just swapping roles and I don't see the point. If people are thinking paladins are too strong right now what will they think when a paladin comes in with a 2hander while gaining extra attacks and healing, all at normal dodge rates?

Some of this is being overthought imo. I like change and good discussion but the game isn't broken right now, it doesn't need a huge overhaul you know?

[Honzo]

I didn't say elves have replaced gnomes. I said MAYBE people would pick them over a gnome, huge difference there. You can say 22 int elf, but then you can be a 23 int gnome so it equalizes itself there. That extra INT does make a difference. Do you see any elf casters right now?

Personally I've seen more Elves than Gnomes for every role, not just casters.

It's an interesting idea and I get the concept of it, but I think at the end of the day you're just swapping roles and I don't see the point. If people are thinking paladins are too strong right now what will they think when a paladin comes in with a 2hander while gaining extra attacks and healing, all at normal dodge rates?

Some of this is being overthought imo. I like change and good discussion but the game isn't broken right now, it doesn't need a huge overhaul you know?

Thats the thing - Paladin WONT guard anymore. They will become a hybrid healer/dps like bards and druids are. They ALL 3 heal, so they can support somewhat, and they can all do okay dmg, and really they all get buffs of some sort if you consider BLESS a buff. That's why I suggested a new spell for them to put them in line with the other hybrids. Druids give haste and okay heals and dmg, awesome. Bards give random buffs, an okay group heal, and okay dmg, sweet! Paladins can heal SINGLES better than BOTH of them, self buff dmg and can use a 2hander to enact righteous justice? sick.

edit for clarity: I never said anything about extra attacks either, I said add a spell that could empower them on a duration like Realms of Kaos Druid Morph was. It gives them more options in their hybrid dmg. They use both INT and STR so they shouldn't excel at either of them, but why not some combination to make them strong? For instance, Bards get the Str/Armor song now which will help them vs Melee and they have the Int/Magic Absorb spell to help them vs Casters. It's just an buff to bring them in line is what I'm thinking so that they can use both sides of their inheritance(Magical/Physical).

[NiteHawk]

Swapping the roles at this point is eh. I like guardians as they are. We can leave it as 5% then. I think there needs to be a negative effect on it though. You are protecting for example, a sorcerer which is far more squishy typically. You can also plan properly and protect/remove protect. Maybe /protect shouldn't take up a turn, instead you can get in and out of it whenever needed. That might be too powerful, but you could generally let a cleric get hurt, then try to save it with protect that way. It might make more sense when there is a party member list window showing stats, but for now there isn't. Paladins are fourth on the DPS chart in terms of swords, bards and rangers go below it, though rangers have pets. They are byfar not bad in DPS though. I think you're aiming to do too much of a change there.

When I said 5% more MR, it's based off the MR they lose in /protect. They lose more MR then they do dodge at the moment, but MR per point is more effecting so 5% dodge does not equal 5% MR. I think regardless the MR they lose can still be decreased a bit. It's not higher MR, they get a nerf of 15% right now when protecting. Though I'd say about 10% MR is about the same as 5% dodge in that regard and is why I'm stating they can still lose out on some of that negative MR.

The issue with bows and thieves is bows are designed for rangers, specially. They have a way higher min, and little higher max then swords. It doesn't work with thieves unfort right now. Kind of sucks. Removing /backstab on thieves I think is worthless. It will be another class that just attacks plainly. I like them as they are, the just need some more stuff to do. So not going to remove that. Maybe some specific thief weapons would be better choices but it's a shame about the bow. I don't think it's possible to fix bows unless rangers didn't have the ability to equip swords, which probably gimps rangers then. Maybe the DW on thieves could give them a 5th attack but that seems weird that it wouldn't on assassins either, or maybe I'm wrong. So yeah I do not think this will work for bows though...

HE/Human don't really stand out atm no.


You can't compare 22int gnome to 22 int elf. You compare 23int gnome to 22 int elf OR 22int gnome to 21 int elf. I'd have to disagree with your statement though. RIght now there are 67 gnome sorcs, and 31 elf sorcs. Those stats are ripped from the creation characters anyways. I think 23int/22wis really is better overall. I'd say gnomes are more party dependent but their extra damage can be worth it. I will agree that elves are being used in alot of roles, specifically magic classes, but not so much sorcerers as much as other classes. 31 elf sorcs, but about 92 elfs in total. While gnomes had 78 gnomes created and 67 of them are sorcs. Gnomes will probably benefit from having a protector buddy more. Elves also do not get the same wisdom. You have to +1 to get 22 wis. On top of that, with these changes it makes gnomes more tankier towards other magic classes because of the MR rate, higher wisdom, etc.

'Dodge boost' when making races is pretty goofy. The smarter idea would be to add agi, not hidden stats that aren't needed here. I still think the 0.5 seconds is not so overpowering.

Elementals we could leave. I don't see much worry in adding +5 damage reduction on spells though more. Just to be more unique anyways.



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As folder said, we don't need a overhaul. These are all MINOR tweaks in my book to optimize classes/races that are struggling a bit.

[NiteHawk]

Racial:
Dwarf: +1 str and +1 int. +2 AC.
Elemental: +2% resist, +5 damage reduction on spells? (just to give them something?
Elf: +2% resist, 15% fizzle reduction.
Gnome: +5% resist, 10% more mana.
Goblin: +2% resist.
HE: +3% resist, 10% fizzle reduction.
Ling: +1% resist, 0.5 stamina second speed bonus.
Human: 5% fizzle reduction. (Something else? Someone suggest)

Classes:
Barb: -10MR bonus, +2.5% more dodge rate (sitting at -5% now), 10% more HP (2.5% more), +5% rage damage bonus, -1% agi less per rage, instead of 2%.
Druid: -3.5% agi dodge rate (-8.5 agi loss total). Which is about 5% on paper. THEY WILL GET THE AGI BACK IN MORPH. (+1 agi to cat and bear)
Monk: Meditate skill. Similar to druids but self only.
Paladin: While protecting remove 5% of the negative MR they get. (so would be 5% dodge, 10% MR.. aka better)
Ranger: +1% MR bonus
Sorc: Adjust starting attacks. (Aka they gain attacks a little faster.)
Thief: DW or something else. Traps are a thing, but they will take a longer time to code. Fix /steal XP, take a look at fail rate.



What about as someone talked about before, maybe HE and Humans could get the +1 bonus without having to sacrifice +5 points to do so. That would make them interesting.

Edit: Could be +2 instead of +5 too, maybe if people feel that its too little.

[Folder]

Sounds good.

For humans what about an experience gain bonus? If they had permanent 5-10% (10% probably) bonus xp gain that could make them worthwhile.

I think a free +1 is interesting, I dunno about that one. On a half elf you could do 19 22 19 10 20 16 or some variation. That's not crazy op but it's pretty strong too.

[Honzo]

You can't compare 22int gnome to 22 int elf. You compare 23int gnome to 22 int elf OR 22int gnome to 21 int elf. I'd have to disagree with your statement though. RIght now there are 67 gnome sorcs, and 31 elf sorcs. Those stats are ripped from the creation characters anyways. I think 23int/22wis really is better overall. I'd say gnomes are more party dependent but their extra damage can be worth it. I will agree that elves are being used in alot of roles, specifically magic classes, but not so much sorcerers as much as other classes. 31 elf sorcs, but about 92 elfs in total. While gnomes had 78 gnomes created and 67 of them are sorcs. Gnomes will probably benefit from having a protector buddy more. Elves also do not get the same wisdom. You have to +1 to get 22 wis. On top of that, with these changes it makes gnomes more tankier towards other magic classes because of the MR rate, higher wisdom, etc.

You cant have 23 int and 22 wisdom on a gnome though without sacrificing endurance or agility. It's just not possible with current stat allocation. Can they get a +1 stat allocation so they can at least go back to x 23 21 17 22 x ?
Not surprised to see more gnomes created, but 67/78 of them ARE sorcs. That isn't a good sign is it? Can you datamine more and show how many are lvl 24-25 (or whatever you deem endgame, 23-25?) If we have a 23 base Wisdom race shouldn't we have a 23 base int race as a natural counter?

I was merely just throwing out ideas. As far as the bows being designed for rangers and not wanting to take away ambush from thieves, I totally understand that too. Not trying to change things up too much, hehe. What if you made the 5th attack possible ONLY when dual wielding? Could you change haste back to giving 1 extra attack instead of the stamina reduction? It'd make it a lot more appealing to bring a druid. I'm not sure what the haste advantage is right now. I know that you changed it somewhat. How many extra attacks are you getting per minute now if you do them all on time?

What about as someone talked about before, maybe HE and Humans could get the +1 bonus without having to sacrifice +5 points to do so. That would make them interesting.

Edit: Could be +2 instead of +5 too, maybe if people feel that its too little.

It was me. I just thought it'd be an interesting idea, I don't think many people would play them still but it'd open up a lot of interesting choices imo. Maybe 2 is a bit much, or you could do 2 for humans and 1 for half elves. that'd be interesting to me at least.

I think a free +1 is interesting, I dunno about that one. On a half elf you could do 19 22 19 10 20 16 or some variation. That's not crazy op but it's pretty strong too.

I think it'd be neat and open up a lot of possibilities. You could always modify their ability points too. Give them a free +1 but dont let them have the 5 points extra, just let them have like 2-3? If you understand what Im saying haha. I don't know if that's possible though...is it? lol.

[NiteHawk]

Sounds good.

For humans what about an experience gain bonus? If they had permanent 5-10% (10% probably) bonus xp gain that could make them worthwhile.

I think a free +1 is interesting, I dunno about that one. On a half elf you could do 19 22 19 10 20 16 or some variation. That's not crazy op but it's pretty strong too.

The bonus EXP could be a thing but I think it a temp thing that people won't really do because of it. Dunno.. Could work just to give them something more.

What about if its reduced then? For example, if its +2 or +3 instead of +5?


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Ohh, I see about gnomes! They should get +1 stat point then instead. that would solve it. Super easy balance fix dun woosh! But I am actually thinking about giving them +3 stat points now based on what they can do. Geezus, I don't know how I missed that, they were meant to be able to be non-shit like that.

We don't need a 23 counter for everything, I don't think that's the case for all stats. Each stat is different. I feel that +1int point is alot more then other stats on a sorc.

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The bow thing though again the issue is that bow stats are way too op right now for a thief to use them. It would be messy 8( I wish they could use bows, but if that was the case then there needs to be alot of changes to how the game mechanics work.Yeah the 5th attack would be with DW only when it comes to thieves but I'm not sure if that would be too op or not for them. We actually had to lower it because it used to be two seconds and they were owning hard.


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I think druids are fine as they are with haste. Honestly I'm not sure why we aren't seeing more, in tests before the wipe, druids were wiping everyone. Maybe they are a hassle to level though, dunno.
30 attacks is standard.
34 attacks is with haste... So an extra round per minute.

thing is giving them that extra attack virtually makes them NInjas but with heavier DPS. It's kind of too much I think.

[Honzo]

Honzo is happy. lol. At least gnomes get the 1 wisdom back. Ill reply in a bit when I get home.

4 extra attacks per minute seems a bit weak, but yeah I see that they would be deadlier ninjas. I thought the whole point of cat form though was to be of similitude to Ninjas? XD If giving lings 2 extra attacks per minute, haste seems like it'd be weak, because you can get half the haste benefit without even casting it! Is there anyway you could give them a small buff in that dept? I remember you telling me druids were wrecking people but maybe its because the haste was too powerful then but not powerful enough now? I'm not sure to be honest though. Is there a way to tell what the average duration is in a PVP skirmish?

[NiteHawk]

Honzo is happy. lol. At least gnomes get the 1 wisdom back. Ill reply in a bit when I get home.

4 extra attacks per minute seems a bit weak, but yeah I see that they would be deadlier ninjas. I thought the whole point of cat form though was to be of similitude to Ninjas? XD If giving lings 2 extra attacks per minute, haste seems like it'd be weak, because you can get half the haste benefit without even casting it! Is there anyway you could give them a small buff in that dept? I remember you telling me druids were wrecking people but maybe its because the haste was too powerful then but not powerful enough now? I'm not sure to be honest though. Is there a way to tell what the average duration is in a PVP skirmish?

Well ninjas get 37 per though more like 36 seconds if you include the extra time it takes to attack (probably 0.1-0.2sec) So it's a about 60% of what a ninja gets. I haven't really changed anything but haste atm, I think people need to just try them out and test. I don't see a ton of them atm, not sure there is a elder yet. I'd prefer having tests done first and having people have elders before I change something like that blindly