Divinity indicator

[Aieron]

I see your concerns, Thoth, but you are using reality as a basis for what can/should be done in a game (a MUD for that matter) and that is ALWAYS dangerous territory for a fantasy game (or RPG in general usually) that has spells, goblins, etc. It's just not a good door to open.

Think about this from the perspective of someone who has no clue what RoK was, and stumbled across this game due to a friend, website, etc. THAT is the crowd we need to be concerned about attracting and retaining.

We need to worry about what will get people to START the game before we can discuss with them what will KEEP them in the game a year down the road. I don't think making leveling, which is by the far the worst part of most games these days, to be a hassle for "lore" purposes is the way to go.

People want to be able to level the most efficient way possible. That means the fastest (albiet not safest usually) way of leveling. The wonder of most MUDs is gone after the first hour of grinding exp. You start making things grindy and annoying with something as upfront and influential as div, it's going to go nowhere fast.

There's nothing fun about an RPG (NOT a puzzle game) making me run everywhere or talk to a dozen people ("go here", "retrieve this" "kill that" "talk to this person") so I can learn which mobs I should be leveling on.

That takes right straight back to a third party wiki becoming required for the vast majority of people to play, learn, and enjoy this game

I hate everyone trying to use new players as an excuse to simplify mechanics. That's not how you attract/keep new players. You build an immersive world that the player grows attached to. You build reward systems that encourage exploration and adventure. You don't do things for the sake of "lore" as you're implying, you do them so players grow attached to the lore. There's a lot to be said for readability/accessibility of games, but in this case, it's a world building issue more so than a core mechanic issue.

You're thinking about this as if Ember is RoK. It isn't.

Yes, a new player logging on right now would have a shitty experience. That's because there's no quest system, very little world development, and story in place to guide them. This isn't what Ember will be like when we're actually looking for new players.

[kaijick]

Simplify mechanics? Like what? showing me what divinity a mob has by inspecting them?

[Thoth]

I see your concerns, Thoth, but you are using reality as a basis for what can/should be done in a game (a MUD for that matter) and that is ALWAYS dangerous territory for a fantasy game (or RPG in general usually) that has spells, goblins, etc. It's just not a good door to open.

Think about this from the perspective of someone who has no clue what RoK was, and stumbled across this game due to a friend, website, etc. THAT is the crowd we need to be concerned about attracting and retaining.

We need to worry about what will get people to START the game before we can discuss with them what will KEEP them in the game a year down the road. I don't think making leveling, which is by the far the worst part of most games these days, to be a hassle for "lore" purposes is the way to go.

People want to be able to level the most efficient way possible. That means the fastest (albiet not safest usually) way of leveling. The wonder of most MUDs is gone after the first hour of grinding exp. You start making things grindy and annoying with something as upfront and influential as div, it's going to go nowhere fast.

There's nothing fun about an RPG (NOT a puzzle game) making me run everywhere or talk to a dozen people ("go here", "retrieve this" "kill that" "talk to this person") so I can learn which mobs I should be leveling on.

That takes right straight back to a third party wiki becoming required for the vast majority of people to play, learn, and enjoy this game

OADs are puzzles, some of which that are riddled with riddles. Quests are time related and show storied progression. You were gone for 13 years and in that time a ton of things happened that showed time progression in RoK and RoK had spells and goblins as you say. Where is there an issue to use reality amidst a fantasy/RPG game when you still obey the essential rules of a reality anyway I mean...ask our Loremaster. He knows as well as any of us that if there is not meant to be gravity in a game that there needs to be a reason for that. In this case this game already has a time progression and storyline based around a century post RoK as it is, more of a nudge to the other game than anything but still a basis.

Also...how you might be accustomed to playing a game (efficiently) isn't a blanket for how everyone actually plays. As for keeping players....if your game isn't already in tune with how they will keep players long term then they have already lost them all. As for the types of players you think games like this should have, well...from what I know so far there is already a plan to take this game onto multiple platforms including FB which opens up a variety of possibilities as to what kind of player we will get in the long run.

It's better to plan for the players you can't predict as opposed to the ones you can (all your long term used to play RoKers). Noobiness needs to be accommodated for as well which to laymen's for you means easy to start easy and fun to play and content that draws them in and KEEPS them in.

Most of this however is neither here nor there because in the end it's not anyone here's decision as much as it is a majority response with Chris's veto power.

[Aieron]

Simplify mechanics? Like what? showing me what divinity a mob has by inspecting them?

Yes.

Instead you could be told a story/do quests that show you why the nearby cultists worship XX God.

Instead you could be tasked with a quest to unlock a bestiary written by an ancient huntsmen.

Instead you could be socializing with other players to find out the ideal spots.

Instead you could spend 10 minutes researching in an academia to prepare for your adventure. While doing this, you could stumble upon cool things like hints to rare mob drops / rare mob spawns / OAD hints.

[kaijick]

Again, super basic yet ultra important game mechanic, hidden behind a grind. Are these seriously what you guys consider good ideas for game development?

Div isn't some secret advantage, it's not some secret location; it's as basic as the class and race you choose at the same time.

Want to learn where an OAD is? Refer to ideas above.
Want to learn a secret forest or location? Refer to ideas above.
Want to learn basic mechanics so you know how to play the game? Go play something else because that's a grind too

[Thoth]

Edit: Ferget it. Im dun.

[Aieron]

Again, super basic yet ultra important game mechanic, hidden behind a grind. Are these seriously what you guys consider good ideas for game development?

Div isn't some secret advantage, it's not some secret location; it's as basic as the class and race you choose at the same time.

Want to learn where an OAD is? Refer to ideas above.
Want to learn a secret forest or location? Refer to ideas above.
Want to learn basic mechanics so you know how to play the game? Go play something else because that's a grind too

Who said anything about making it a secret advantage? I'm just saying it creates a richer experience to have that information presented organically. Not like going to the Academia and searching an article on Bullfrogs is very difficult. Not like doing a quest that gives you a reward and gives you monster information is something troublesome to do.

Honest question: What -DO- you want to do when you play the game? If it's all about getting to max lvl, dualing in the gameroom, and entering events then we're envisioning a very different direction for the game.

[Satsujin]

Including the divinity of a monster in the look over is a horrible idea, both from a game play standpoint and an immersion one. FWIW I'm also against displaying divinity in character bios as well, though I would be less adverse to that if it at least used the gods' names FFS.

There is no game, or at least not one I want to be part of, without story elements and at least some immersion factor. Every RPG I've played in the last 20 years that's featured a bestiary has required you kill the monster in question to learn about it first. In most modern RPGs (Dragon Age: Inquisition, for example), the more of the monster you kill, the more you learn about them, and in exchange you get a bonus against that kind of monster in the future.

Some games feature a shortcut around this - The Witcher has a skill set that let's you learn about monsters without having killed them, Final Fantasy has Scan/related spells that tell you what monsters are strong/weak against with some being immune, Dungeons & Dragons has skills that give you a chance to roll to see if your character knows anything about the area/enemies.

Now, there are a number of ways to handle this that might make most people happy.

The first way is to utilize the Academia and encourage players to research the area they're going to be leveling in. This uses a game feature that, on ROK, had no purpose, because it wasn't maintained by anyone who gave a shit, and encourages immersion and player contributions to ensure the Academia is story relevant and always up to date. Personally, this is the option I, as the primary lore guy, support the most.

The second option is a skill similar to Final Fantasy's Scan. Make it tell you some basic information about the monster, but make it cost an action, and give it a chance to fail. This allows people too lazy to read (and I won't even try to sugar coat this, if you don't want to read, what the fuck are you doing on a MUD?) the chance to learn pertinent information about the mobs they're leveling on, while also ensuring people can't spam the hell out of it, giving them some motivation to use the Academia instead, where there's no chance of failure. I don't like this option, but I find it infinitely more acceptable than carebearing players by putting a big KILL THIS GUY sign on every mob.

[kaijick]

I expect BASIC MECHANICS, such as something I choose IN MY CHARACTER CREATION, to be transparent, and not hidden behind a grind or secret knowledge of locations. You are telling me you think it is FUN to not know what something IN MY CHARACTER CREATION does until I GRIND enough to find out?

Well good luck with that. This says a lot about where this game is going to go

[NiteHawk]

I expect BASIC MECHANICS, such as something I choose IN MY CHARACTER CREATION, to be transparent, and not hidden behind a grind or secret knowledge of locations. You are telling me you think it is FUN to not know what something IN MY CHARACTER CREATION does until I GRIND enough to find out?

Well good luck with that. This says a lot about where this game is going to go

I'll finally chime in on this.

What you might think and what others might think is different. I don't think theres a 100% way to please everyone. I understand where you are coming from but sometimes people enjoy a little bit of figuring out what is the best mob and exploring the realms. I think everyone in the end is entitled to their opinions and I'll normally do what I think is best.

With this, I was intending on making a ranger skill that could identify creatures. It could give basic information about the NPC, such as divinity, etc. Keith came up with a cool idea to work in scrolls (as we use scrolls for alot of things now) and make Identify Scrolls. What this means is rangers could create the scrolls, and they can be given out or used to identify.

They'd use the blank scrolls as it is now, so it's a fair price anyways. Perhaps the identify could have a chance to fail/etc etc. But generally that was the idea. I don't want the information to be easily gained, but I think this way it doesn't make it hard at all either, but still lets the player explore and figure out the world using a actual game mechanic.