Race Stat Changes

[Styx]

I love the continual fear of people dying to a ling or sorc. Hence so many posts based upon magic resis, and the huge forum post on agi vs str. Where it was made certain the horc would have the huge dammage amount but be pure melee only. So from that debate lings got the nerf, agi in general. In which broke agi dodge leading to people make str b end based alts to win.

So now here we sit, once again in the debate of agi vs str based game. In what has the appearance of the same problem as before. Yes we are all wanting balance, that's the main thing.



BTW when the timer reduction was in, for lings, I didn't see much difference. So after the changes I'll see how many times a 24 agi ninja can die. Can't stop 700 dammage horc slayer. So life needs to be 1.4k life in order for main pvp. We are now 19 pages.

[Terron]

changing the stats is more or less irrelevant. metaphorically, few months of this and bam new implement has a new dagger drop and hp are insufficient all over again. gotta balance the hit points to what the game will become, not what it is now. damage will keep increasing HP need to cover this for the long run, not hp changes every 6 months.

1) if anything horcs and saurians should drop -1 agility and lings gain 1 more agility for a loss of int.(18 24 17 19 20 22)

2) agility doesn't cover the penalties of most races gaining 1 agi for a loss of 1 str and .66 end on average.
choosing agility isnt paying off(except solo, so next to never) changing hps over and over wont fix this. whats missing is high endurance high agility races as an effective counter( i.e. 16 22 22 18 20 20 or something)

3) gnomes...what the fk happened to gnomes bro. gnomes in general should be so gd scarey all casters run in fear, regardless of class. thats the payoff for 17 endurance isnt it. you can add more int if you want but that isnt helping them. glass cannons are sorcs in general not just gnome sorcs. adding int doesn't help the class survive magic like intended. i could see +1 agility but this is obviously a lacking racial bonus issue.
id say something like 16 22 17 23 22 20, 10% bonus mr , spell negation 25 , -15% offensive spell damage output, 20% less fizzles.
gnomes should get destroyed by melee indefinitely, be practically unharmed by magic, and be the best percentage casters around. the negative spell damage brings them inline with other races and makes elf the better damage/pker/weaker caster vs spells. just keep the spell damage penalty inline with gnomes having the upperhand vs dwarf/ele casters with mass hps and it will fix them in my eyes.

[Styx]

Can I suggest, go ahead and adjust agi, let it sink in, then we can see about changing stats.

[-Z-]

To help in the future with these type changes if you don't already have it, would it be possible to code a script to input Values I.E Race/Class/Stats/Spells to do quick auto vs Race/Class/Stats/Spells? I.E input values vs values x1000 fight and shows outcome of number of wins/losses? Generic straight forward classes would be easier than classes like Elders. Would have to limit there spells to haste/morph and attack and ofc an A.I fight cant replace actual game play through and descision making but would help determine certain balance issues on a smaller scale to head you in the right direction. I'm not a coder, just an idea guy so if it sounds far fetched don't mind me. Just trying to pull my weight in a good gameing community by tossing a few suggestions around whether they are ideal or not.

Edited: Maby go more in depth as far as the information received, I.E number of wins/losses, number of hits landed/missed, avg dmg ect.

[daedroth]

14 gets my vote.

[NiteHawk]

changing the stats is more or less irrelevant. metaphorically, few months of this and bam new implement has a new dagger drop and hp are insufficient all over again. gotta balance the hit points to what the game will become, not what it is now. damage will keep increasing HP need to cover this for the long run, not hp changes every 6 months.

1) if anything horcs and saurians should drop -1 agility and lings gain 1 more agility for a loss of int.(18 24 17 19 20 22)

2) agility doesn't cover the penalties of most races gaining 1 agi for a loss of 1 str and .66 end on average.
choosing agility isnt paying off(except solo, so next to never) changing hps over and over wont fix this. whats missing is high endurance high agility races as an effective counter( i.e. 16 22 22 18 20 20 or something)

3) gnomes...what the fk happened to gnomes bro. gnomes in general should be so gd scarey all casters run in fear, regardless of class. thats the payoff for 17 endurance isnt it. you can add more int if you want but that isnt helping them. glass cannons are sorcs in general not just gnome sorcs. adding int doesn't help the class survive magic like intended. i could see +1 agility but this is obviously a lacking racial bonus issue.
id say something like 16 22 17 23 22 20, 10% bonus mr , spell negation 25 , -15% offensive spell damage output, 20% less fizzles.
gnomes should get destroyed by melee indefinitely, be practically unharmed by magic, and be the best percentage casters around. the negative spell damage brings them inline with other races and makes elf the better damage/pker/weaker caster vs spells. just keep the spell damage penalty inline with gnomes having the upperhand vs dwarf/ele casters with mass hps and it will fix them in my eyes.

1) I think saurians will be extremely worthless if you remove an AGI point. They are designed to be nailed by magic users, but do fairly good in melee combat, obviously not 100%, but still better. If you keep lowering their AGI/etc it becomes worthless.

2) I'm not sure I agree here. The issue is AGI doesn't make an impact like END or STR does. We are working on adjusting this via modifying the formula though. High END High AGI with low str might be a think but adding it now would make more balance issues until we solve the current. I fully believe we can balance out everything without that.

3) Already adding INT to gnomes (#13 and up). Can play around with some of the values for sure. Being unharmed by magic (to me) in a balance mechanic is just as problematic as lets say a melee race being too good. We already dealt with it and I don't think it'll help balance if theres one race that literally takes no damage against magic. Balance wise it's not a good idea to be that extreme. We're literally going one side to the other here. They are already though, if you max out their wisdom, gonna hit for lower damage and not very often. Fizzle modifier is probably an OK idea though since they are obviously, 'the' magic race.

[NiteHawk]

BTW when the timer reduction was in, for lings, I didn't see much difference. So after the changes I'll see how many times a 24 agi ninja can die. Can't stop 700 dammage horc slayer. So life needs to be 1.4k life in order for main pvp. We are now 19 pages.

It isn't meant to be a big modifier but before it did make a difference from what people said.

It literally means for most fights you will be unexhausted first every round, which can be a big plus.

[NiteHawk]

To help in the future with these type changes if you don't already have it, would it be possible to code a script to input Values I.E Race/Class/Stats/Spells to do quick auto vs Race/Class/Stats/Spells? I.E input values vs values x1000 fight and shows outcome of number of wins/losses? Generic straight forward classes would be easier than classes like Elders. Would have to limit there spells to haste/morph and attack and ofc an A.I fight cant replace actual game play through and descision making but would help determine certain balance issues on a smaller scale to head you in the right direction. I'm not a coder, just an idea guy so if it sounds far fetched don't mind me. Just trying to pull my weight in a good gameing community by tossing a few suggestions around whether they are ideal or not.

Edited: Maby go more in depth as far as the information received, I.E number of wins/losses, number of hits landed/missed, avg dmg ect.

It's not a bad idea but it will take quite a long time to make a full simulator. I have an half assed one that works for generic fights but not actually with spells/etc atm. I do want to test certain elements though of spell casing but thats gonna be a hard code rather than a simulator you can easily swap.


I've updated #14 a little bit. Small change to gnomes really.

[Styx]

Dumb question but, the dammage from gnome sorc would be top at 23, , if it used to be 22 set as top and scaled down , would 20 int have a major change?

So previous is 22 -20 , 2 point diffetence
14 is 23 - 20 = 3 point difference, will the 1 point make a huge change and make the 20 int races drop dammage wise

OR allow the plus 1 on gnome as new high for mage

[Terron]

there just isnt enough magic classes to warrant needing wisdom atm. why be d/e why be ling why be anything but dwarf or horc or saurian. 9 melee classes 2 magic and 1 healer. in a world where magic is only 1/6th relevant its part of the problem. if the roles were reversed so to speak (9 magic casters and only 2 melee units existed) no-one would be horc/saurian/drake. most likely it would be all dwarf currently.

the trade off theory isnt holding up because the scarcity of magic. i say this because 95% of mud players make atleast 1 of every class. that means its 80-85% melee at any given time.
-this makes races seem to suck bad, but the world just isn't 50/50

races like saurian are trading 1 end point for +2 str +2 agi and end up with a character that is successful vs 80+% of the other characters ingame. Lizards are heavy, seems unlikely theyd have anywhere near ling quickness let alone blow a gnome out of the water in the agi department.

take human for example, u can pick horc instead, u lose 1 agility and gain 4 str, 2 end. human wouldn't stand a chance even with max stats. they stand almost no chance vs drake saurian dwarf either. they are a middle of the road race, balanced to be decent at everything. except the trade off is you are only balanced versus magic users(15% of the game).

Oads favor dexterity and high hps. if u have low hps after taking a huge shot and cleric cant heal you full, you risk death next round. in this aspect its just better to select high hps and ensure you survive a quick dbl tap or atleast survivable from 2 shots with 1 heal between. so oads also favor the same preferred races as above especially dwarf.


i think you should just poll players and find out where they think a decent amount of hit points stands. most players would say 1100 hps would be pretty decent. and when they do you start 17 end there and go up from that point.

other:

rangers pet heal should be based off of wisdom so the class can get some magic resistance w/o changing anything else. 15-16 points in wisdom isnt that effective but its way better than none. i like ranger especially after the changes but there is 0 reason to level more than 1 because they all have 0 MR.

edit: in the current gnomes suck vs 95% of other characters. making them impervious to magic only grants them the ability to conquer 15% of the current character pool. it is nowhere near the same thing as letting a melee race dominate 80%. casters should always have that lingering thought in the back of their head, "i can get crushed by a gnome". its the same tradeoff as a horc/saurian with the "imma get incinerated by a barrage of fireballs". lowering the offensive spell damage on gnomes is the counter, would make them win like 6/4 vs other casters, pretty equal do melee's standpoint of str/end vs agility. as of current you might aswell delete the race and add a 3rd race similar to saurian, atleast it would get used.