Race Stat Changes

[NiteHawk]

Just glanced at proposal 12 and while I haven't done a lot of thinking about it, it seems to me that boosting Lings End would possibly result in more cookie cutter type builds going forward especially in Rangers and Bards (and NH and Lat were worried about cookie cutter builds earlier)

Therefore I'd suggest giving Elves +1 Str (ie 19str) so as to maintain a tradeoff balance between Elf and Lings for Rangers and Bards (ie either choose the +1str Elf or the +1agi Ling). Otherwise you really will have cookie cutter characters with every new ranger/bard made being a Ling (with possibly the occasional Drake for ppl who don't care about MR)... But elf will be entirely out of the equation for rangers/bard unless they get the +1str (not to mention pissing off the ppl who have existing elf Bards/Rangers)

Giving Elf 19Str probably won't overshadow HE either as they keep their +1end for -1agi tradeoff balance with elf and still have their 2alloc point to +1 bonus which is quite valuable (perhaps HE could get more racial traits or allow points if they do need some boost to compensate elf getting 19str but I think Elf needs something extra enough to contemplate this)....HE will probably still be used for classes such as priest & pally etc due to higher End. Elf as it stands in proposal 12 seems really only suitable for Mage classes and is merely one contender out of several others (ie not necessarily the front runner). 19 Str would also do abit to helping Elves somewhat close the gap to Eles and Gnomes as Druids in the interim (though really the whole morph formula for Druids will eventually need changing to be fair if any racial diversity with that class is to be accomplished).

Alternatively, if ppl think giving Elf +1Str Causes too many balance issues for other races then I at least suggest giving them +1Chr (23 chr) instead so they can be a relevant choice in the ranger/bard class decision (ie +1agi for +1chr tradeoff with Lings)....and lore wise aren't elves meant to be much better looking than halfling a anyway lol?

Peace

I am more worried about them being too DEs and HEs than. I get there is a one point tradeoff but that is very similar in those cases. (DEs being -1 str for 1 int/1wis and HEs being 1 end for 1 agi, 1 wis, 1 int.. Then there is lings which is 1 str 1 int 1 wis for 1 agi. Kind of eh and I think we would need to refocus everything again.) Having +1 char is probably OK though and makes them fair good rangers/bards too.

I do need to change the Druid formulas too though, I agree on that. But I think as it stands a lot of people see elves as clerics, pallies, etc. Also need to change the per INT formula too for certain things like healing so it can matter more.

Do humans still have the pot cooldown reduction? They seem rather good if they have pot reduction, 2 points for a +1, and 15% reduced fizzle. Might not need all that, although it's nothing exactly gamebreaking.

True I guess, I nitched that.

Bit concerned by some of this, I'm at work atm but hopefully tonight I'll get a chance to do what I did with the first proposal.

After this step is complete, are you going to run any stat simulations on this to see if this shows up any areas of concern?

Honestly we need to get this done ASAP. Apparently a lot of people are waiting for the changes/not creating stuff and its hurting the count of players more I think. For simulations, depends if theres any pointed out I can do. I get these need to be 'good' and we can't just throw random junk, but we need to also get it done.

[Folder]

I like 23 chr on elves, although I don't think anyone would choose an elf ranger over a ling still because 1 str > 1 chr. It does make a compelling bard choice though so that's good.

Agreed on needing to push this out. I can't speak for everyone ofc but I haven't started anything new because of this. I'm sure I'm not alone there!

As always thanks for your work.

[Lateralus]

I really dont see the need for elves to have 19 str it makes them too much like half elf and dark elf imo.

Elf is already getting a big boost in fizzle rate reduction that is huge for healing and spells. plus once int matters a bit more for healing they are going to be even a better choice over the other classes for healing. I am not sure they really need anything tbh.

Elf is currently better at sorc necro cleric. guard bard and ranger are a toss up. again with int mattering more I think they will take guard as well plus the reduced fizzle. So that leaves bard and ranger for halfling to be good at. You wanna give elf 23 chr as well and make them the clear best at bard and ranger too? doesnt make a ton of sense to me tbh.


Halfling: 18 23 18 20 20 22
Elf: 18 22 18 21 21 23 20% extra fizzle reduction

I am not really sure 1 agi is worth 1int, 1wis and 1chr and 20% less fizzes...

Again I dont have any halflings but it doesnt really seem fair to them seeing even with the changes to agi its really not going to be a big diff at all.

Agi is going up .25% so 1 in 400 will land an extra hit?


I even without the extra chr i wouldnt pick halfling for anything but ranger or bard. After the extra chr i for sure wouldnt make a halfling for anything.

[NiteHawk]

I really dont see the need for elves to have 19 str it makes them too much like half elf and dark elf imo.

Elf is already getting a big boost in fizzle rate reduction that is huge for healing and spells. plus once int matters a bit more for healing they are going to be even a better choice over the other classes for healing. I am not sure they really need anything tbh.

Elf is currently better at sorc necro cleric. guard bard and ranger are a toss up. again with int mattering more I think they will take guard as well plus the reduced fizzle. So that leaves bard and ranger for halfling to be good at. You wanna give elf 23 chr as well and make them the clear best at bard and ranger too? doesnt make a ton of sense to me tbh.


Halfling: 18 23 18 20 20 22
Elf: 18 22 18 21 21 23 20% extra fizzle reduction

I am not really sure 1 agi is worth 1int, 1wis and 1chr and 20% less fizzes...

Again I dont have any halflings but it doesnt really seem fair to them seeing even with the changes to agi its really not going to be a big diff at all.

Agi is going up .25% so 1 in 400 will land an extra hit?


I even without the extra chr i wouldnt pick halfling for anything but ranger or bard. After the extra chr i for sure wouldnt make a halfling for anything.

That's true, didn't think about all the bonuses they get. The fizzle rate is only 15% now though like it was before.

The AGI does matter against lower AGI through tests it made a good difference, but yeah one agi is little difference.

We could reintroduce a lower exhaust timer on them, but instead of half a second like it was before that was a bit too op, maybe something like 0.1 or 0.2 of a second. Meaning its a little boost that pretty much allows a ling to typically be able to attack first long as they are on the ball. Don't know.

[anthriel]

I really dont see the need for elves to have 19 str it makes them too much like half elf and dark elf imo.

Elf is already getting a big boost in fizzle rate reduction that is huge for healing and spells. plus once int matters a bit more for healing they are going to be even a better choice over the other classes for healing. I am not sure they really need anything tbh.

Elf is currently better at sorc necro cleric. guard bard and ranger are a toss up. again with int mattering more I think they will take guard as well plus the reduced fizzle. So that leaves bard and ranger for halfling to be good at. You wanna give elf 23 chr as well and make them the clear best at bard and ranger too? doesnt make a ton of sense to me tbh.


Halfling: 18 23 18 20 20 22
Elf: 18 22 18 21 21 23 20% extra fizzle reduction

I am not really sure 1 agi is worth 1int, 1wis and 1chr and 20% less fizzes...

Again I dont have any halflings but it doesnt really seem fair to them seeing even with the changes to agi its really not going to be a big diff at all.

Agi is going up .25% so 1 in 400 will land an extra hit?


I even without the extra chr i wouldnt pick halfling for anything but ranger or bard. After the extra chr i for sure wouldnt make a halfling for anything.

Shrugs I am just trying to suggest things that give people 'good choices' to preserve racial diversity in classes. Ideally for each class you have at least 2 front runner options with relatively equivalent tradeoffs (eg saurian/Horc for slayers, elf/gnome/ele for mages etc, de/gobs for thieves etc)... I'm just pointing out that for bard/ranger that choice used to be Elf/Ling and it is a good thing to try and keep that to avoid an obvious cookie cutter character build emerging. What doesn't make sense to me is that you correctly moaned about cookie cutter builds earlier (which i agree is a bad thing but disagreed that it would come about merely from allowing racial respecs alone if the races provided good tradeoff choices) but now you seem to want Lings to be clear frontrunners at something (which leads to promoting cookie cutters)... And even weirder to me is your stance on not offering compensatory race respecs once you mess up previously equivalent race tradeoff balances.

Basically I think perhaps we have different ideologies. I seem to be working under the assumption that "rebalancing" is to make underused races more viable while maintaining good balances/choices for class-build diversity. Halflings after these changes now appear in good stead to be viable considerations for classes like cleric, pally, thief and possibly mages (but clear frontrunner for bard/ranger). To me, your comments (above and previous posts in this thread) appear to promote the goal of "rebalancing" as making underused races more viable by boosting them straight to frontrunner in order to entice ppl to level one and force more 'replayability' of the game via an ongoing cycle of this type of change (which if I have perceived accurately as your position, I totally disagree with)

If ppl think elves have too much with +1str or +1chr and other racial traits, then probably just reduce the fizzle rate thing back to 15% or whatever. Even with fizzle reduction I still don't think they make awesome Guard/Priest cos HE is still better for those imho (as they have more hp and almost as much fizzle reduction and can cheaply +1 Agi to Match elf) and Ling potentially now enters the top priest discussion too (having been given +100hp and the ability to still +1end further while keeping 23agi).... So not sure elves win there over them there....And in the Mage discussion, Eles and potentially Gnomes (with new changes) will probably make quite good alternatives to elf.... So imho it is elves which may not really enter the "top few races" discussion for any class if they aren't kept in the ranger/bard picture.

Perhaps NH can again clarify how the fizzle rate reduction works - from memory I think I recall it not being as good as it sounds. How much is the real difference in fizzle % between say a 23 INT gnome verses and 21 INT elf with 15% or 20% fizzle rate reduction?

Peace.

[Styx]

16 pages, can current proposal be posted and left in first page, so people can refer to firat page for current proposal

[NiteHawk]

Perhaps NH can again clarify how the fizzle rate reduction works - from memory I think I recall it not being as good as it sounds. How much is the real difference in fizzle % between say a 23 INT gnome verses and 21 INT elf with 15% or 20% fizzle rate reduction?

Honestly at level 25 it depends on the spells. Blast though has a minimum of 4% fizzle, and 20 int and up pretty much hit the cap at level 25. It does help with leveling though too. But you are looking at 4% and then the actual fizzle reduction, so 0.85"4 and your looking at 3.4% fizzle rate with blast on an elf. Hence why I don't think it's a big deal to increase to 25%.

With AID the fizzle rate is 5% minimum, the fizzle rate is different but you're looking at 4.25% fizzle rate with an elf with 19int or higher at level 25.

All the actual fizzle rates can be adjusted for difficulty but normally if you have close to max int you're looking at hitting the cap anyways.

Are elves though actually underused? From the counts from before I see a lot of elves being made over others. I would think if any race need balancing it probably wouldn't be elves so much, but maybe I'm wrong. I do see alot of elves being created/level 25 though atm, but mostly as clerics/spell casters with some pallies here and there.


When I look at

18 23 18 20 20 22
and
18 22 18 21 21 22

Though they are pretty similar in stats. I would think that you'd go with clerics/magic casters on elves but I'm still not sure what you'd use ling for but probably pallies with high agi, knights with agi, stuff like that. I think some more heavier racial traits should play a part in it. Issue is with these two being so similar is if you bump up one in stats I think you risk shadowing the other. Right now giving 23 char to either or as an example would make you sway to said race on bards and rangers

However, basing it off stats allocation... You could do a 18/22/18/21/17/10 elf or a 18/23/18/20/18/10 ling via the stat changes. Obviously this means if you change it up a bit it becomes 18/22/18/20/18/10. and the flaw is you overshadow elves.

I don't think LINGS should get the +1 based on this. Thus it would become:
18/22/18/21/17/10 elf vs 18/23/18/20/17/10 ling which is a little better.

Again just showing it based on stat allocations, nothings set in stone but I think we will remove the +1 allocation point on lings.

The other alternative is to not give lings the +1 end as the HP pools different now but I think this just makes elves overshadow them.

Truth be told gnomes don't need the +1 either as you can make a 5 stat with the changes still, or a 4 stat with no points to spare for magic casting. The +1 to int there is probably enough.


Edit: I am making a calculator. It seems that alot of races that have MR were originally based off 106 allocation points. DEs atm having 105, dwarves having 107, so makes sense that 106 is a good line for them.

[NiteHawk]

Took a little bit of time but here is a calculator done in google sheets>

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =379639207

You pick two races to compare. It will warn you if you do stuff incorrect like give +2 points and whatnot. Use the max values on the right as guidelines.

It will also output the difference. Green means Race 1 is higher, Cyan means Race 2 is higher. (Or positive value vs negative value).

This should help give some ACTUAL examples. I tried to add all the racial bonuses too that we are discussion so factor those in too when you do stuff. Test it out.

[NiteHawk]

Added POTENTIAL HP too, even including CHR so you can see how CHR effects HP. didnt do MP but that can be ignored tbh for now.

Min/Max is referring to what you CAN get. (You can see I did an example of the HP. 15 char is actually = to one END on average in this new HP formula case, but the risk is while if you +1 end and have 10 char you will have a set 1050 HP while 15 char will get you anywhere between 1025 to 1075Hp at level 25, which is actually interesting.)

Anyways. Hopefully this will better us.

[Lateralus]

Yea I think things look pretty good and balanced with the latest proposal. If anything just minor tweaks but everyone is going to have their own opinion.

The biggest things were addressed but not a ton was changed which is nice.

I think if everyone is ok with this we should try to get it in pretty soon. With barb event over I know quite a few are holding off leveling anything else until they know how stats will play out.

Once int matters a tiny bit more on healing I think we are pretty set and balanced. There are always going to be races that fit classes best but not everything can be the same or it becomes vanilla. I feel some of the under used races got better here and some of the dominate races came back to the pack so that's the intention