Drop Stealing

[anthriel]

Well 15 seconds is a long time but I kinda like that idea.

Some cool ideas here and I mostly like them, but remember if -everyone- is special then -no one- is special. The playing field is not supposed to be 100% flat, else the game will become boring.

imho i dont think a multiple crafting-item drop idea levels out the playing field 100% in any way.... those who work harder will likely still get more benefits/drops and achieve getting the weapons/gear etc much earlier and in greater numbers etc... the aim is basically to give more ppl a sense of 'fulfilment' and 'accomplishment' so they keep on playing rather than quitting (which is especially important while EO still has the goodwill carried over from ROK nostalgia and is trying to attract new players to stick around)... plus what use is being "special" anyway if almost everyone else has left the game (for whatever reasons of frustration/unfulfilment) and there is no one left to be awestruck by your great "specialness" (or by all the hard work NH and others have put into making the game for that matter)?... a more diversified benefit makes for healthy rivalries... and healthy rivalries maximise entertainment/enjoyment for all involved (this logic works in sport, and i reckon it should work similarly in MUDs)... shrug

[Yue]

And now, for something completely different.

Two rules:
- After the Crimson Dragon dies, the square in it is "locked" for 30 or more seconds. No one can enter it, or leave it.
- The Crimson item ALWAYS drops from inventory
Meaning that if someone did drop steal, he would still have to fight the other people on the square to get out.
This should be easy for NH to implement.

For example, in the situation of 10 Defiance and 1 Silh fighting the Dragon:
- Defiance makes lots of damage, but either the Silh guy gets the KS, or outright dropsteals the item
- The 10 Defiance now have the option to murder the Silh guy. The Silh guy cannot flee. He also cannot get help. If he D/C, he will still.

I think this is a very simple mechanic that stops:
- "unfair" dropstealing by someone that just macro's stuff and runs away
- "lucky" shots, where you arrive and take the last shot, and think stuff is yours: Well, if you are alone, it is. If you aren't.. have a "discussion" with the rest of the folks with you, at the square

I honestly think this is a great idea TBH.

[Folder]

And now, for something completely different.

Two rules:
- After the Crimson Dragon dies, the square in it is "locked" for 30 or more seconds. No one can enter it, or leave it.
- The Crimson item ALWAYS drops from inventory
Meaning that if someone did drop steal, he would still have to fight the other people on the square to get out.
This should be easy for NH to implement.

For example, in the situation of 10 Defiance and 1 Silh fighting the Dragon:
- Defiance makes lots of damage, but either the Silh guy gets the KS, or outright dropsteals the item
- The 10 Defiance now have the option to murder the Silh guy. The Silh guy cannot flee. He also cannot get help. If he D/C, he will still die.

I think this is a very simple mechanic that stops:
- "unfair" dropstealing by someone that just macro's stuff and runs away
- "lucky" shots, where you arrive and take the last shot, and think stuff is yours: Well, if you are alone, it is. If you aren't.. have a "discussion" with the rest of the folks with you, at the square


Edit: "he will still die"

I like this.

[Folder]

Well 15 seconds is a long time but I kinda like that idea.

Some cool ideas here and I mostly like them, but remember if -everyone- is special then -no one- is special. The playing field is not supposed to be 100% flat, else the game will become boring.

imho i dont think a multiple crafting-item drop idea levels out the playing field 100% in any way.... those who work harder will likely still get more benefits/drops and achieve getting the weapons/gear etc much earlier and in greater numbers etc... the aim is basically to give more ppl a sense of 'fulfilment' and 'accomplishment' so they keep on playing rather than quitting (which is especially important while EO still has the goodwill carried over from ROK nostalgia and is trying to attract new players to stick around)... plus what use is being "special" anyway if almost everyone else has left the game (for whatever reasons of frustration/unfulfilment) and there is no one left to be awestruck by your great "specialness" (or by all the hard work NH and others have put into making the game for that matter)?... a more diversified benefit makes for healthy rivalries... and healthy rivalries maximise entertainment/enjoyment for all involved (this logic works in sport, and i reckon it should work similarly in MUDs)... shrug

Everything in moderation friend. My warning is about changing too much and getting to the point where everyone gets participation medals. That doesn't keep people playing much the same way as constant frustration doesn't.

[Rael]

I agree the square locking could make it fun and does make support classes important.

[Thi]

And now, for something completely different.

Two rules:
- After the Crimson Dragon dies, the square in it is "locked" for 30 or more seconds. No one can enter it, or leave it.
- The Crimson item ALWAYS drops from inventory
Meaning that if someone did drop steal, he would still have to fight the other people on the square to get out.
This should be easy for NH to implement.

For example, in the situation of 10 Defiance and 1 Silh fighting the Dragon:
- Defiance makes lots of damage, but either the Silh guy gets the KS, or outright dropsteals the item
- The 10 Defiance now have the option to murder the Silh guy. The Silh guy cannot flee. He also cannot get help. If he D/C, he will still die.

I think this is a very simple mechanic that stops:
- "unfair" dropstealing by someone that just macro's stuff and runs away
- "lucky" shots, where you arrive and take the last shot, and think stuff is yours: Well, if you are alone, it is. If you aren't.. have a "discussion" with the rest of the folks with you, at the square


Edit: "he will still die"

I like this.

I second dis.

[anthriel]

And now, for something completely different.

Two rules:
- After the Crimson Dragon dies, the square in it is "locked" for 30 or more seconds. No one can enter it, or leave it.
- The Crimson item ALWAYS drops from inventory
Meaning that if someone did drop steal, he would still have to fight the other people on the square to get out.
This should be easy for NH to implement.

For example, in the situation of 10 Defiance and 1 Silh fighting the Dragon:
- Defiance makes lots of damage, but either the Silh guy gets the KS, or outright dropsteals the item
- The 10 Defiance now have the option to murder the Silh guy. The Silh guy cannot flee. He also cannot get help. If he D/C, he will still die.

I think this is a very simple mechanic that stops:
- "unfair" dropstealing by someone that just macro's stuff and runs away
- "lucky" shots, where you arrive and take the last shot, and think stuff is yours: Well, if you are alone, it is. If you aren't.. have a "discussion" with the rest of the folks with you, at the square


Edit: "he will still die"

I like this.

I second dis.

I think this suggestion has the appearance of being a solution, but is actually counterproductive in the long run because it doesnt solve the root problem (ie that there is only a single benefit/drop that cant be shared out amongst many). Sure it helps people fight it out for that one item and potentially then the more 'deserving' player or guild may eventually get the item... but then the remaining people who participated but didnt get the item dont feel fulfilled at all (eg winning team gets 100% benefit, losing team/teams get 0% benefit)... eventually if you cant win and keep getting 0% benefit then this would still lead to people discouragement-quitting or rage-quitting and pretty soon you have a one guild game (which is totally intimidating to newbies and therefore not really going to grow)... and pretty soon it is a stagnant playerbase with no competition (ie a dead game or at least one heading there quickly)

Basically i dont think its in anyone's interests to see it head there. You need at least some competition from non-dominating guilds/players to keep things interesting (eg its important to keep at least the Def/Sihlo rivalry and encourage more 3rd/4th party guilds to enter into competitiveness).... otherwise say if all the Def players and/or players from other guilds get discouraged and quit... then newbies (or others who trickle back to check out EO due to RoK nostalgia) will quickly realize that the majority of the community are inactive lvl 25s who have come and gone before them and also realize that /gtop pretty much shows like 1 active guild with all the players in it... would that motivate you to start playing? perhaps some might... but most have changed circumstances from Rok 10-15yrs ago now... old Rok players may try EO for nostalgia sake but they also probably now have restricted time investment due to having families, jobs, many alternative forms of entertainment that provide easier gratification etc .. and as for new players ... well GMUDs arent the 'cutting edge' of gaming like they were when Rok first came out... without nostalgia to carry them, if they dont find some kind of fulfilment/competitiveness early on in their experience then they are never going to bother staying around to grind to 25 and enjoy the fullness of the game... In short it would be a sad and boring end if the game became too uncompetitive that people stop playing (kinda like watching a professional team having no opponent to compete with in a sporting match and then playing against any amateurs and children they can find - i mean who seriously wants that?)

I'm not asking for a level playing field. I am saying EO needs a more level playing field and a system (for worldbosses and even other content) that supports that --> because i think EO's greatest need right now isnt new content or whatnot... its retaining/attracting/motivating players to keep playing! Otherwise once the playing field gets too uncompetitive (which leads to inevitable discouragement-quitting from existing players or <lvl25 newbies)... it will be very hard to undo. There's probably no way to lure back a newbie who has tried it, had an unfulfilling experience and decided to move on. And the only way to potentially lure older players back then would be a long advertised character/server wipe to re-level the playing field... and dont think existing active players really want to see that either.

This is why a single item drop/benefit (no matter how you might try to force people to fight for who gets it so that the 'most deserving' person/guild does) is still much less favorable for the game as a whole (especially for a game hoping to attract and expand, rather than becoming a single-guild-dominated glorified chat room)

[Folder]

I feel like, as in every online game ever, there will always be a group of people trying harder than others. They will be online more, they will do more, they will have more. It's part of the experience imo.

I totally get all of what you're saying and I agree with most of it, especially the bit about needing NEW content. Fix the existing content, there's plenty to do right now but most of it is very unfriendly to anything but the most active players.

IMO there could perhaps be some kind of system that combines the ideas here. I very much like the idea of a "locked" square where people have to fight it out. It doesn't really make any sense lore-wise, unless uhh I guess you make up some bullshit about the Dragon circling the area with fire in its death throes. But gameplay wise it could certainly be interesting.

I also like the idea of a system with multiple drops so that more people can get rewards. I don't think that a solo player should really have much of a chance at obtaining the ultimate reward as this entire game is based around grouping, but I can certainly understand the desire to feel like you can gain something out of being solo or in a smaller group.

Going along with that bit about smaller groups, the game NEEDS OaDs that can be done without requiring 6 people to budget an hour of their time. Most OaDs do not get run every day because they flat out require 6 people and take upwards of an hour. Having more options for smaller groups/guilds would, I think, help people feel like they have more to do.

[anthriel]

I feel like, as in every online game ever, there will always be a group of people trying harder than others. They will be online more, they will do more, they will have more. It's part of the experience imo.

I totally get all of what you're saying and I agree with most of it, especially the bit about needing NEW content. Fix the existing content, there's plenty to do right now but most of it is very unfriendly to anything but the most active players.

IMO there could perhaps be some kind of system that combines the ideas here. I very much like the idea of a "locked" square where people have to fight it out. It doesn't really make any sense lore-wise, unless uhh I guess you make up some bullshit about the Dragon circling the area with fire in its death throes. But gameplay wise it could certainly be interesting.

I also like the idea of a system with multiple drops so that more people can get rewards. I don't think that a solo player should really have much of a chance at obtaining the ultimate reward as this entire game is based around grouping, but I can certainly understand the desire to feel like you can gain something out of being solo or in a smaller group.

Going along with that bit about smaller groups, the game NEEDS OaDs that can be done without requiring 6 people to budget an hour of their time. Most OaDs do not get run every day because they flat out require 6 people and take upwards of an hour. Having more options for smaller groups/guilds would, I think, help people feel like they have more to do.

Can agree with most of this --> especially recognizing the desire that solo/smaller group people have to gain something on worldbosses + tailoring current content to the time-poor culture of current games. Basically the system has to be such that it doesnt remove reward from the most active players, but also shares some reward with other also hard working players so they will keep playing. Crafting item drops do that imho. It may mean it takes longer to get the awesome questie sword this way... but what use is the questie sword if there's no rivals left to hit with it at the end of the day.

I look fwd to seeing what NH hopefully does with all this feedback

[Miach]

I feel like, as in every online game ever, there will always be a group of people trying harder than others. They will be online more, they will do more, they will have more. It's part of the experience imo.

I totally get all of what you're saying and I agree with most of it, especially the bit about needing NEW content. Fix the existing content, there's plenty to do right now but most of it is very unfriendly to anything but the most active players.

IMO there could perhaps be some kind of system that combines the ideas here. I very much like the idea of a "locked" square where people have to fight it out. It doesn't really make any sense lore-wise, unless uhh I guess you make up some bullshit about the Dragon circling the area with fire in its death throes. But gameplay wise it could certainly be interesting.

I also like the idea of a system with multiple drops so that more people can get rewards. I don't think that a solo player should really have much of a chance at obtaining the ultimate reward as this entire game is based around grouping, but I can certainly understand the desire to feel like you can gain something out of being solo or in a smaller group.

Going along with that bit about smaller groups, the game NEEDS OaDs that can be done without requiring 6 people to budget an hour of their time. Most OaDs do not get run every day because they flat out require 6 people and take upwards of an hour. Having more options for smaller groups/guilds would, I think, help people feel like they have more to do.

Can agree with most of this --> especially recognizing the desire that solo/smaller group people have to gain something on worldbosses + tailoring current content to the time-poor culture of current games. Basically the system has to be such that it doesnt remove reward from the most active players, but also shares some reward with other also hard working players so they will keep playing. Crafting item drops do that imho. It may mean it takes longer to get the awesome questie sword this way... but what use is the questie sword if there's no rivals left to hit with it at the end of the day.

I look fwd to seeing what NH hopefully does with all this feedback

Sorry for the big block quote, but I want to touch on this idea. Crafting nice items is definitely what would solve this. I'm not saying each mob drops crafting materials (I'll need 4 more vaults if this is the case), but certain mobs could drop essential items that could be combined in crafting. Some of these drops can be very rare and would give the economy a boost in trading as well. Builders would need to implement some challenging areas meant for two or three person parties to get OaD Crafting Materials (essential component of the craft). That way you could solo grind the basic crafting item, then run the Crafting Material OaD for a chance at finishing off the "Crafted OaD" item. The rarity of the drops, the materials required, and the challenge of these OaD Crafting Material areas is completely tweak-able allowing for just the right amount of challenge and RNG luck. It would be a lot harder than putting a team together and clearing a OaD, it may (may not) require several days of farming (may RNGesus's favor shine upon you) for a certain material.

I just don't know how hard it would be to implement and I know NH has a ton to do already, so I totally understand if this is something that takes a backseat for a while. I do feel like we swayed slightly from a Drop Steal conversation into... something else, though.