Class Stat Restrictions

[NiteHawk]

Also I will be looking at total stat points on all races. I think removing some per is ideal to balance it out. It is originally higher because obviously you need int/wis on those characters but also the restrictions. Removing a couple points will probably help.

[Folder]

Good discussion guys! Hard for me to comment more cause I'm at work but I'll chime in later tonight.

I think there may be a real discussion about race stats in general brewing. In my head it makes sense that everything is based on a "perfect" 20 20 20 20 20 20, with + and - stats still ending up at 120 total points. But that's a big tangent...

[NiteHawk]

I have just attempted balance on the stat points now.

The lower stat point races like goblins, half-orcs, etc did not get effected by this as they have low points to begin with.

Elves, dark-elves, gnomes, etc got modified. They lost points, averaging about 5 stat points. I did some tests but it seems 'ok' now.


It also means you might need to think if you want to use the +6 points on those races. Gnomes for example you'll have to sacrifice a point somewhere (probably wisdom) and do 23 int/21 wisdom in order to get 23 int. It's a good test though, recreate some characters and test it out.

I felt like having a 10-15 point difference on some races was a bit unfair, I understand a little bit is needed because of INT/WIS, but you could make 5 stat characters now which made the powerhouse races less elite.

This should help a bit anyways, might need to raise some or such, but through a quick test it seemed OK. Maybe the bonus stat should be 5 points instead of 6 points too, but we'll see later.

[Bron]

Good discussion guys! Hard for me to comment more cause I'm at work but I'll chime in later tonight.

I think there may be a real discussion about race stats in general brewing. In my head it makes sense that everything is based on a "perfect" 20 20 20 20 20 20, with + and - stats still ending up at 120 total points. But that's a big tangent...

In a "perfect".. well "basic" setting yes, that would be the start of any system balancing. But that is hard to get to work for several reasons. Are all stats weighted the same? Do they have the same beneficial effect for the classes they affect? If you had six classes (or multiples thereof) you can have each class focus on ONE stat as their main, with all of their abilities being weighted off that stat more-so than any other stat. But this doesn't quite work here. For in order for that system to work you would basically have to be like STR=Barb, AGI=Asn, END=Cav, INT=Sorc, WIS=Cle, Chr=Bard. And basically all their dmg as well as their skills would all be dependent solely on their associated stats. Then you have all the other classes, and they would have to follow the same formula but maybe taking the average of their two important stats, and in some extreme cases maybe even three stat. But all the other stat would play minor roles and wouldn't be required to be maxed and the character could function and be competitive with just one max stat.

The other way to go, which would be easier for EMBER would be to assign stat slots and slots appropriately based off racial ideals and lore.
So if you take HUMAN which is the BASE of all things. They are set at 20 20 20 20 20 20 which is the point at which stat are really considered relevant. With "usable" stats ranging from 16 - 24 (4 on each side of the relevant point). Now lets say ELF is 18 22 18 21 21 20, so their stat total is the same. But then you add in +8% Spell Resistance OVER the humans. So now you have a basic imbalance.

The best way I have seen to overcome this is to assign a POINT TOTAL to have with every race. Lets say that the point total is decided to be 130. We would already be at a problem because some stats are viewed more valuable. Well a barb doesn't need int or wis, so the race is balanced even if those stats suck and so on. Races have to balanced around the same class with different aspects. Is a Saurian Barbarian going to beat an Elf Barbarian in a straight fight? Probably. Is that Saurian gonna beat a caster? Probably not. Will the Elf Barbarian beat a caster? Probably. But if they don't start off on an even footing, the short comings will become more apparent and there will be more character being copies of each other, because each class has a decidedly "best" race.

Human: 20 20 20 20 20 20 (120pts); +5% Dodge (5pt); +5% Spell Resist (5pt) = 130pts
Elf: 18 22 18 21 21 22 (122pts); +18% Spell Resist (18pt) = 140pts
Saurian: 22 22 19 14 14 14 (105pts); +3% Spell Resist (3pt), +4 Armor (12pts) = 120pts

PS: Started this before I left the house, am going through character creation now to see what has changed.

TLDR. I have opinions about stats and stuff.

[Bron]

I will bring up, that some races that can just barely eeeeeeeeeeeek by with being competent in certain classes due to their requirement. If the requirements are put back in place after the wipe but stats/requirements are left as is. They would no longer be viable as those classes, due to they would have to lose in a stat, maybe even AGI/END.

[Bron]

I think I figured out why some races even though they have good stat total and decent amount of points to spend, seem to come up a little shot in some areas. Because of the up and down stat totals, the distribution of points allocated to spend doesn't cover close enough for each race, only a few races seem to get the short end of the stick.

With their points able to be allocated in their Highest 4 Stats (Stats in the order on the creation part of the game, STR AGI END INT WIS CHR)

Dark Elves: 20 22 10 20 20 10 ; 3 points remaining
Drakeblood: 21 22 20 10 10 20 ; 0 points remaining
Dwarf: 20 19 23 10 20 10 : 1 point remaining
Elf: 10 22 10 21 21 22 ; 0 points remaining
Gnome: 10 21 10 22 22 20 ; 2 points remaining
Goblin: 19 22 20 17 10 10 ; 4 points remaining
Half-Elf: 10 21 10 20 20 21 ; 4 points remaining
Halfling: 10 23 10 20 20 22 ; 1 point remaining
Half-Orc: 23 19 22 14 10 10 ; 4 points remaining
Humans: 20 20 20 20 10 10 ; 6 points remaining
Saurian: 22 22 19 14 10 10 ; 5 points remaining

So the only race able to get a +1 with their four highers stats maxed is a Human, all other races have to immediately sacrifice some points somewhere, some a lot more than others. Now.. also I know the AGI and END are usually always considered max. So I was curious and also did a list with each race having the AGI, END, and their two other highest stats maxed to see how many points were left then.

Dark Elf: 20 22 18 20 10 10 ; 5 points
Drakeblood: 21 22 20 10 10 20 ; 0 points
Dwarf: 20 19 23 10 20 10 : 1 point
Elf: 10 22 18 21 10 22 ; 3 points
Gnome: 10 21 17 22 22 10 ; 5 points
Goblin: 19 22 20 17 10 10 ; 4 points
Half-Elf: 10 21 19 20 10 21 ; 5 points
Halfling: 10 23 17 20 10 22 ; 4 points
Half-Orc: 23 19 22 14 10 10 ; 4 points
Humans: 20 20 20 20 10 10 ; 6 points remaining
Saurian: 22 22 19 14 10 10 ; 5 points

Some races didn't change, cause AGI/END fell in to their four highest already. BUT Human is still the only race able to max out with 6 points remaining. So even if you are following the races true path/lore and their stats only humans can do 4 +1. Several races join Saurian though, Dark Elf, Half-Elf, and Gnome with 5. But Drakeblood and Dwarves lose out quite a bit, and Elves are also left behind a bit.

Just something to look what with the stat changes made earlier today and how it impacts certain races and their ability to have diversity in their stats.

[NiteHawk]

I will bring up, that some races that can just barely eeeeeeeeeeeek by with being competent in certain classes due to their requirement. If the requirements are put back in place after the wipe but stats/requirements are left as is. They would no longer be viable as those classes, due to they would have to lose in a stat, maybe even AGI/END.

I don't intend on keeping the requirements if the point allocation is lower.

Dark Elf: 20 22 18 20 10 10 ; 5 points
Drakeblood: 21 22 20 10 10 20 ; 0 points
Dwarf: 20 19 23 10 20 10 : 1 point
Elf: 10 22 18 21 10 22 ; 3 points
Gnome: 10 21 17 22 22 10 ; 5 points
Goblin: 19 22 20 17 10 10 ; 4 points
Half-Elf: 10 21 19 20 10 21 ; 5 points
Halfling: 10 23 17 20 10 22 ; 4 points
Half-Orc: 23 19 22 14 10 10 ; 4 points
Humans: 20 20 20 20 10 10 ; 6 points remaining
Saurian: 22 22 19 14 10 10 ; 5 points

The idea is you do have to sacrifice to get the bonus, that's correct. A better alternative might be to lower the stat point to +5 instead of +6 but generally that was my intention. Not all races will probably be able to use the +1 effectively though. Because humans have 20 stats al around generally all their stats are lower so they often will end up with more points left over. I don't think it means they are better though.

However, for example 14 int/wis on a saurian, you sacrifice it to boost your strength/agi/etc. This is valid for that race. Drakebloods are hard becaues they lack points. You're only 4 points away from a 6 statter, Generally you sacrifice charisma for something else. Most other non spell caster races, half orcs, goblins, drakeblood, look fine though.

Human and HE, Gnome, DE seem okay too. The intention for alot of them for example gnomes, is that for gnome you sacrifice -1 wis or -1 end for +1 int though.

Elves are power houses, It looks like have have less butt hey have one of the most char allocation points. Mainly due to having couple 22 pointers and 21 stats that use up alot of the points. 22 charisma isn't needed for most so you'll often sink that into other areas. But I think they are okay.

Dwarves maybe need a point or two.


Generally the idea here is that characters will be alot more unique. The whole perfect stats on everything is a boring system. I'm not saying that it doesn't need to be tweaked here and there, but the intention was as so, about 4 statters and you sacrifice a little for +1.

I think lowering the extra point to 5 needed would be a good idea though.

Just remember no one is going to have a 'best' character for everything. Though the races 'need' to be useful and not shadow another race (aka like the old elves in rok were completely useless)

[NiteHawk]

Next client update at 1pm today (EST):

-Point allocation for bonus point is now 5 instead of 6 points needed
-+2 points to Dwarf
-+1 point to Elemental
--1 point to Gnome (I want them to sacrifice one point).

Edit: I lied, update in now.

[Cerebrus]

This wont contribute to the discussion much but Im rather enjoying my Horc Druid. 23,19,22,14,14,10 Almost 1100hp at 22. Made me a gobby last night and gonna play around on it a bit too.

[NiteHawk]

Left strength for now, might be okay. Thing is I want some value, at least strength, to be effected with 'each' point. I'll have to think up something if it needs to be different, unless there's another idea.

I adjusted the AGI though, typically its 18-22 wis for 2+ agi and 23-24 wis is 3+ agi.

Also adjusted bear form slightly to support under 16 wis, though it's not a good idea, before it was giving you negative stats.

I also fixed capture on rangers. The base is '15' to get whatever value it is. Here is an example with a 6% charm monster:
10 charisma: 1.62% charm
12 charisma: 3.62% charm
15 charisma: 6% charm
22 charisma: 12% charm
23 charisma: 13% charm


Generally 22 char is double charm rate, 12 charisma is halfish.

I'm looking at more things that need to adjust, there shouldn't be much left.