Class balancing and potion/food cooldowns

[Frost]

I think that we need to discuss how potions are used and the effect it has on class balancing. I made a post in the thread about Cavaliers in the class/race forum on this topic (here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7&start=20#p3879) so apologies if I am repeating myself for some people (and some of this post is taken from there).

I think the short potion cool-down and long food/drink cool-down has some unintended consequences for the game. Killing mobs (grinding) or pking is the primary leveling/game mechanic, pots are cheap and you are expected to use them endlessly. This means that a ninja/slayer has high damage output and an almost endless health pool. I discussed this issue in guild chat and the point was raised that PKing often came down to exhausting an opponents potions, or if you both exhaust potions at the same time then its a roll of the die to see who wins.

On the other hand, food and drink have extremely long cool downs. Making healing during combat with potions even more convenient.

The focus in RoK was always on an idea of solo leveling (set up macros, go and serve your time) to work towards an end game, primarily OaDs and social aspects. Looking at the current classes, the ones that should be the most 'solo-able' should be druids, necros, rangers (the pet classes). Some classes should probably be a bit harder to level just by their nature. For example, clerics might rely more on grouping that others. Other classes, like bards, clerics and druids, can offer some benefits outside of combat as well (I think EverQuest was a great example of this with druid portals etc).

Ultimately, a knight should be looking to group with damage and healing to level effectively. I know this is kind of MMO mechanics 101 but I really think some of the basic balancing of tank, damage, support and utility could improve gameplay. The shared group exp has already improved this game beyond RoK in my opinion. People don't play an online game to sit alone and hit f1, f2 , f3 etc. If we can now limit the use of potions, glass cannons will have to seriously consider how they approach mobs and the support classes (tanks and healers) will become a real presence in the game.

The problem that follows is that the costs for healers rises really quickly, as they are expected to heal a lot more. I think the way to tackle this is either with a meditate type skill (mana regen when not interrupted) or to decrease cool-down on food/drinks and consider pricing going forward.

So in short: if potions have a 10 second cool down and food/drink has effectively none, classes will immediately be more balanced due to the limit it places on the effective health pool of the 'glass cannons'.

[NiteHawk]

I'd like peoples says on this as well. I do think that the potion duration could be increased.

Food could be lessened timer wise, but food is not meant to be used in combat so I think it needs a slight delay per use, even if its a short one. I think it could be alot less though, I agree.

We need to ensure that this game CAN be played solo though, I will say this. You cannot expect everyone to level in a party or find a party all the time, if you raise it too high and solo characters can't do anything alone, then it ruins usage.

Alternatively, you can also decrease the amount healed per tick, or instead make a long tick with higher heals. Whatever people feel would be best.

[Aieron]

I think potions feel too good right now because not many are 25 with proper lvl25 tier weapons. I was holding off posting this till we try out lvl25 pvp, but yeah, right now you never die if you have potions until you run out.

If we do nerf potions then I think some classes will struggle a lot though. I know barbs chug potions like crazy when fighting Rotting Dead (I think this mob is a bit too strong).

[Reckqq]

I've thought about this a bit, couple things. Yes currently it is hard to outdamage pots in pvp. This leads to two things, if the enemy doesn't want to fight back(and your not ganking someone already gravely hurt) you won't kill them. And two, if they do fight back you will have to burn each others pots first before the dice roll of who wins begins.

I believe this is only an issue because 25 OADs are not obtainable for all classes yet.

ATM with the current best in slot daggers(Emerald Knife/Bone Dagger) as a slayer i'll backstab you twice(assuming no misses) for around 300 each and you will pop 2 Blood Potions while I'm exhausted and one more while I'm attacking for 225 each. HP Pools are pushing 1,000. Pots heals are guaranteed, my damage is not. When you factor in misses, low damage rolls and the fact that most people aren't 25(-1 stam), you can clearly see why we can't kill each other. It's not necessarily a potion issue but a TTK issue (Time to Kill.) I know this to be true because if you have DIV bonus over the enemy you can kill them through pots even in current gear with lucky dice rolls.

When numbers get more inline with what NightHawk posted awhile back, people WILL die through pot spam. Lets get the rest of those OADs in and then reconsider the pvp aspect of this topic.


As far as pve goes, we must tread carefully with attempting to stifle the soloing. Keep in mind whenever content get's too hard to "stand and bang" people will just resort to hitting and running at 1 stam. The monster will still die, it will just be even more tedious and unfun to get it done. This is ONE CRIT login which inherently makes supports here more valuable than they ever were in RoK. We could incentive grouping (like with the shared exp change) and make lives easier for support classes (mana regen) without necessarily crippling the solo experience. I feel content like the Red Dragon is a step in the right direction (and as such should drop the best loot in the game).

Doing the red Dragon (for example) with a Cavalier Taunt up, A Guardians protecting the Minstrel/Priest/etc and several damage dealers will be the way to go if we want to get the thing killed efficiently. A slayer or ninja just potting it up alone or hit and running won't even dent the thing.


Finally, I agree food needs to be buffed. At the moment I consider it borderline useless due to the combination of it's delay, tick rate, tick amount (Any of these get changed a bit and it should be fine). Drinks are better but only because the resource it offers, mana, is scarce. I would be in favor making healing up, OUTSIDE of combat a bit more desirable.

[Lateralus]

I agree I think potion timers should be longer (doubled?) and I'd like to see food and water scaled up so one session can almost fully heal hp and mana.

I have not tried pvp much but I feel pre 25 pvp is important too so it shouldn't be impossible to pl before 25 even with crap weapons. I think pushing potion timers up should help and bigger heals on food and water should help pve

[NiteHawk]

I agree I think potion timers should be longer (doubled?) and I'd like to see food and water scaled up so one session can almost fully heal hp and mana.

I have not tried pvp much but I feel pre 25 pvp is important too so it shouldn't be impossible to pl before 25 even with crap weapons. I think pushing potion timers up should help and bigger heals on food and water should help pve

Food doesn't need long reuse timers. They just need a small one to prevent them using it in the middle of combat. Let's say 10-30 seconds. So that they don't just keep trying to use it in the middle of combat. 10 seconds would be enough here too. Let's say 10 seconds for both food/potions then. Or maybe just 10 seconds after combat, though that will require some coding that I was kind of hoping not to get into but I guess will have to be done.

The food can be increased, we need to base it off levels and an above average character. I think it could heal up players in 30 seconds if anything, so halved. It needs to be far more useful then someone just using two potions. The cost as well, food can be dirt cheap and it should be to make players WANT to save money. At the moment there is no difference. Why use 50 gold on food when you can use 100 gold and get the same result with two potions. I know 'omg double price' but it is not enough.

What I think:

-Potions can have a 8 second delay timer per use. (Same as a round.. Maybe 10 seconds.).
-Remove the food potion delay timer, and make it 10 seconds AFTER any combat is done. (Note for me: Message 73 can work here.)
-Food should take 30 seconds to heal rather then 60 seconds. (or 24-32 seconds, which could be 3 to 4 rounds?
-Make food cheap. (1/3 a potion?)
-Boost the amounts needed for HP, MP we will look into as well. We should base it off an high END character, (not highest, but above average should be ok.)


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One more thing, we could make food heal percentage based, but I don't know if this would be fair. Rather then having 100 different types of food, you have a few foods that heal ranging from maybe 80-90% to 100%. What would people think of this? What do people think about the 60 second timer being reduced, I gave some examples here, but what would people think is best? 20 seocnds? 30 seconds? 24 seconds (3 rounds), 32 seconds (4 rounds)?

As I said in game, I think the aspect of PKing won't change much. If you are getting attacked by someone 6 levels higher then you, you should run. If you don't, you'll probably die. You shouldn't be able to negate healing that much to the point where they cannot PK you.


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Edit: The percentage thing could be lower, I just realized theres no 2 minute cooldown so you can stack eating food then which should suffice.

[Frost]

I was writing a long rambling post this morning but I will scrap it.

I think those changes sound great. I hope people don't freak out too much initially as there will need to be a lot of class balancing into the future I assume.

[NiteHawk]

Actually instead of 10 wait time 30 heal time for food, I'm going to do 20 wait time and 20 heal time.

Wait time being after combat. let's try that.

Also means less downtime when using a MP food right after, and whatnot.

I'm also going to try the percentage based food, and see how it works. Maybe start it at about 80% for HP, and 40-50% for MP and go from there?

[Reckqq]

Percentage based food sounds anazing. Theres people rolling low wis sorcs because it takes forever to fill up a manabar for enchants.

[NiteHawk]

If we do nerf potions then I think some classes will struggle a lot though. I know barbs chug potions like crazy when fighting Rotting Dead (I think this mob is a bit too strong).

Also for this: One thing though is that all classes won't be good in all areas. Thee issue is right now we don't have ENOUGH level 21-24 areas to go around, that is probably the first area that has that sort of stuff, so I don't think it should be based on them.

I think undead are typically more tougher, and have more HP, but they can be healed to dead, and probably DB'd in the future. (Single mob DB)

We don't even have the most MAX potions yet and it's just going to get worse though if we don't adjust 8)