PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

[Eld]

I might wait until MR is changed on this though, based on values the higher HP races do make it out by a slight amount, which is technically right. Each point is 'technically' 4% in fights, 2% attack and 2% dodge. I don't think that's too terrible atm but since MR doesn't really work its not working so well. I.E. Supposed to be like rock paper scissors, (though obv you can still win as a high agi/lower hp char) vs high hp/low agi chars, but should be able to resist magic byfar more.

Through simulations right now tis 18.5 attacks to kill a Ling with an HO to 20.1 for a HO to kill a Ling. Obviously thats using the formulas and sample, and different things can come up. I would expect slayers to be better when HO's generally.

Obviously for HO's the variation was far greater. they could kill in 14 attacks, or sometimes 24 attacks. While a ling was more balanced, around 17.5 to 22.5. The randomness was greater for HO's that is. It probably sometimes feel like HOs or dwarfs can do more when you get those lucky kills, but ultimately i don't think it's too far off where it should be. aka yeah you can kill faster, but sometimes it can also take longer too. I can see raising this slightly, but I don't think by much. maybe 2.2% per agi instead of 2%.

Are we considering how much hp is regained during battles for these high end characters (im not sure of the formula but i believe higher end regain more hp per round?) Dwarfs can have up to 7 more end than halfing so I assume they are gaining maybe double (not sure if its much or if the formulas are posted).

Something else that doesnt really come up in 1v1 simulations is hp pool and how valuable that is in not only team events but pve as well. I think things are pretty close but I agree agi could use a boost.

I see nothing but dwarf being created and I dont blame them haha!
-casters cant touch them because they have 20wis and a 10 spell damage reduction. Even if their wis was around 16 they still have 23 end to take all that damage)
-high agi races dont really stand a chance since its a bit skewed atm.
-really the only thing that can touch them is another dwarf or half orc (they have the edge)

My dwarf slayer has 19 wis and 10 int, if you +1 a stat you cant get 20 wis or any int.
His MR is almost non existent tbh, the only time any spells fail on me are from 15 int druids with their faeriefire.

If i'm facing a Chanter/DM then I have terrible MR and get ruined.

TBH I wish i rolled orc and got the +3 str, i dont know why people keep rolling dwarves but they're gonna be disappointed like i was

[daedroth]

TBH I wish i rolled orc and got the +3 str, i dont know why people keep rolling dwarves but they're gonna be disappointed like i was

Because dwarves have beards and sound Scottish when they speak.

[NiteHawk]

Well I mean, wisdom is going to be changed so that would be the reason to use a dwarf, it will be a overall better tanker.

For the tests I mean, I did include HP pools and even char bonuses at an average per race.

If 2% is too low per point, maybe 2.5% would be better.

[JadeFalcon]

Well I mean, wisdom is going to be changed so that would be the reason to use a dwarf, it will be a overall better tanker.

For the tests I mean, I did include HP pools and even char bonuses at an average per race.

If 2% is too low per point, maybe 2.5% would be better.

Out of sheer curiosity - how do you test this out?
Do you have a sort of number generator that sims combats, or you actually get people fighting?

[daedroth]

You know usually when I make a character I am making it to a theme. I go with what race/class suits the theme/name I have in mind. I always find it amusing when people make what is considered the best combination (for that time). Then the mechanics change slightly and "OH NOES!" they have to make a new all powerful alt based on the changes
I have an elf barbarian based on a character from a book (was 50/50 with knight, but barbarian due to flurry seemed most fitting) will he be OP do you think ?

[NiteHawk]

Well I mean, wisdom is going to be changed so that would be the reason to use a dwarf, it will be a overall better tanker.

For the tests I mean, I did include HP pools and even char bonuses at an average per race.

If 2% is too low per point, maybe 2.5% would be better.

Out of sheer curiosity - how do you test this out?
Do you have a sort of number generator that sims combats, or you actually get people fighting?

I take all my programming data and simulate how many rounds it takes to kill based on HP, AGI, END, Armor, etc and simulate about a million fights to get the average amount of hits it takes to kill. It simulates everything though, misses, deflects, absorbs, etc.

I don't exactly line up two races in a combat but I could do that too probably. The whole 'how many rounds' is an average. It's mostly how many attacks would it take a race to kill another race in that regard.

It obviously won't take into effect skill vs stupidity, though. And obviously it's still paper info vs reality.

[NiteHawk]

Did an actual attack thing. Two knights going at it:

Attacker is HO with 19 agi, 22end, 12char. 150-193 damage, no div. Around 1213 hp.
Defender is Ling with 23 agi, 17 end, 16 char. 123-158 damage, no div. Around 952 hp.

Attacker and Defender swapped who attacked first. Each attack would be one at at time. So attacker attacks once, then defender attacks once. This would be straight up cavaliers smacking each other.

Current Formulas.
Attacker Wins: 1337061 (53.5%)
Defender Wins: 1162939 (46.5%)

2.2% agi
Attacker Wins: 1230130 (49.2%)
Defender Wins: 1269870 (50.8%)

2.5% agi
Attacker Wins: 1066778 (42.7%)
Defender Wins: 1433222 (57.3%)


Even though you can't factor in RH etc right now (i could simulate it i guess) It still gives a perspective on how different a couple decimals do. (Aka 2.5% is probably too much).

Maybe it's just in peoples heads cause the HP was raised a good deal but AGI was not really changed so instead of the 'feel' that you dodge more, you simply just soak up more damage as a ling.

[NiteHawk]

For example with 2.5% and different HP:

Attacker is HO with 19 agi, 22end, 12char. 150-193 damage, no div. Around 1215 hp.
Defender is Ling with 23 agi, 17 end, 16 char. 123-158 damage, no div. Around 850 hp.

Attacker and Defender swapped who attacked first. Each attack would be one at at time. So attacker attacks once, then defender attacks once. This would be straight up cavaliers smacking each other.

2.5% agi
Attacker Wins: 540331 (54%)
Defender Wins: 459669 (46%)

What happens though is the attacks to kill change alot more. But the risk is then HO's will feel like they aren't hitting enough, which isn't the case. Maybe it's the balance of dodge vs HP, though the final values are actually the same, in your 'head' it needs to 'feel right too'

So suddenly 2.5% agi isnt' so bad. It's about the same, but HO's would have a higher random variance while lings would probably be even more set. Thus the illusion that dodging works better as an average. Though in rare cases lings might have a chance to get fucked a little faster, but ultimately the amount of hits would generally average out to be higher.



It would be like having a 1HP monster that dodges 99% of the time vs a 9999 HP monster that dodges 1% of the time. In reality, the average amount of hits to kill it would be the same, around 100 hits, but you would probably feel a whole lot better hitting the 9999 HP monster because you know attacks are landing. I think same might be the case here in terms of how it works and how players are feeling. Just an example.

[JadeFalcon]

That is. so. awesome!

Thanks

[Folder]

That is good math, thanks for running the sims.

I think why I feel AGI is not as good as END is mostly based on group PvP settings. Assuming you have a healer it is, typically, easier to keep someone with more END alive over someone with more AGI. My dwarf cav -feels- very durable in combat compared to my ling guard (which has more AC because of aegis). This is of course assuming there is a priest in the group healing me.

I'm not sure how you could sim that one out. All I'm getting at here is bigger HP pool + a healer = far more durable character than something with more AGI and less HP.

Hard to balance though because if you make lings just as good at soaking damage in a group setting they will be superior 1v1 and that's not good either. Bleh!