pk ideas thread

[anthriel]

I think one of the imbalance issues here is actually that there is 0% risk for a lvl 25 character in going out PKing (ie you can just die with absolute impunity)... the risk is 100% on the one still leveling.... and with such an imbalance of risk, you get 'bullying' because a sub-25er is never going to be bothered trying to fight back against the 25 because the sub-25er has everything to lose and nothing to gain (and the 25er has nothing to lose)... therefore the 'non-carebear' pk-ing enjoyment of the game is only enjoyed by 1 of the 2 parties involved ... and new players especially can feel like the game doesnt really 'begin' to be enjoying for them until they have a 25er so they can die with impunity also... and getting to 25 is alot of grind (esp if u are getting pked) ... and so many get discouraged and quit... or idle and go do something else untill PKers log off (which leads to game being more dead anyway)... and i disagree that logging lvl 25alts to fight off the pkers as a viable solution... such an act is largely useless/time-wasting/fruitless because #1 they prolly just log off or call help and #2 who cares even if you do kill them... it doesnt have any lasting affect on their 25er or their ability to be out Pking again after a few minutes of temple time....

So my suggestion is this... put in some risk for the lvl 25 pker... for example... if a 25er gets killed by a non-25er then they actually lose EXP the same as a under 25er would and have to re-level up their character (lore wise it could be something like "losing experience/honor due to the shame / utter humiliation of being killed by a less experienced player")... No exp loss should happen for 25ers killing 25ers as this how the majority of events/key battles etc happen and should be left as is. Basically such a system only affects 25ers who effectively try to initiate a 1-sided risk battle against a lower level player... and there should be a risk involved with that for them also in order to balance the game mechanic naturally.

Under this scenario, i might actually choose to stand my ground on a lvl 23-24 sorc against a slayer that has just missed a backstab... and said slayer would have to risk that happening to them (also fortifies the protection of leveling in numbers). And i dont think this would be too open to abuse either... if ppl want to bring lvl 23-24 characters on key battles etc to try and un-level an opposing 25er then game on... they are still at disadvantage anyway due to 1-less stamina point etc (perhaps only thing to stop abuse of this is to just make it that you cant un-level a 25er if hiding behind a guardian to stop big clans bringing lvl 24s hiding behind lots of guards). I suppose PKers could always try to go out gang-Pking groups of levelers, but this is at least harder to co-ordinate for them.

I know this might sound harsh to many ppl but i honestly think that introducing some element of risk for lvl25 pkers attacking a lower level character would help naturally balance out the problem to a big degree.

I'm not against pking and i do not want a carebear game with no-pking... i just think there needs to be risk on both sides of a pking equation... and perhaps those who cant agree to this dont really enjoy the supposed 'thrill of pking' so much as they just enjoy 1-sided 'bullying'.

Thats my 2 cents... hopefully if you disagree with my suggestion for whatever reason you might be able improve on any holes in it or suggest something else that could introduce risk to a lvl 25 pker in the Pking equation.

[NiteHawk]

Damage reduction could be a possible solution. But what happens when it comes to jr koth? Player A has Clannie B kill him 3 times in the game room (no exp loss there) in order to enter an event with boosted defense? If Player A is one of the first fights (assuming reduction is timer based) he/she would easily have an advantage in the first round of a fight and could just sit there and let someone waste their attacks before attacking themselves?

Blah, I solved my own question. We could put it into the description of Player A that they are currently under damage reduction. Or have everyone in said events swing once on the Staffer running the thing..

Why would damage reduction occur in arenas anyways? Even still, two people attacking each other would reset their counters anyways. Just because you die doesn't mean you get a counter in general. If your constantly fighting back, your often doing it to kill the person, the kill counter would reset, you'd never get the three death counter anyways.

Why would this effect clan battles? I don't think you guys read what I wrote clearly, arena is not 8) It was also never for level 25'ers either. Why would a healer be able to keep it's tank effect in PVP? If he were in combat with someone who was in agress mode, he would also be in agress mode too.

In EVE ONLINE for example, its a space game k, they have remote repair ships. You can repair others with no combat timers on you. However, if that person has aggressed recently or is aggressing, you also get a combat timer and you are flagged in combat. It would be similar to that. This would only impact if they are aggressing. Which again this would never occur in proper arenas anyways as an arena can be flagged to ignore this system completely.

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I do understand what you mean anthriel about the 25er not having any real punishment for PKing constantly. I'm not sure if people would say if a simple PK death would mean XP loss. It would either mean that a party will always travel in a super large group to avoid that rather then going in smaller groups, or simply people would probably not want to level over and over again and possibly quit. Most games don't allow you to dip under your current level, mainly because it's just simply boring. I think you are on to something though obviously, but I'm not sure it's the right way to go about it. Not sure though. I'd like says/suggestions from people though about things like this.

I think once we have more end game content to do as well it will help reduce the load on the only thing there IS to do which is PK in any case.

[anthriel]

I do understand what you mean anthriel about the 25er not having any real punishment for PKing constantly. I'm not sure if people would say if a simple PK death would mean XP loss. It would either mean that a party will always travel in a super large group to avoid that rather then going in smaller groups, or simply people would probably not want to level over and over again and possibly quit. Most games don't allow you to dip under your current level, mainly because it's just simply boring. I think you are on to something though obviously, but I'm not sure it's the right way to go about it. Not sure though. I'd like says/suggestions from people though about things like this.

I think once we have more end game content to do as well it will help reduce the load on the only thing there IS to do which is PK in any case.

Thank you for the quick consideration and feedback.

I guess as a recent new player, my own experience/feeling was that there is literally NOTHING that someone can do to affect a 25er who is bullying them while they are leveling (hence probably why many cases result in damaging flame messages which further exacerbates more pking or counter productive bans happening)... basically there needs to be some sort of way you can meaningfully threaten and affect the 25er who is making your life difficult... otherwise the new players feel like the only reason they exist in the game is to be sport for the experienced people who already have 25ers (kinda like those foxes who get hunted down by packs of hounds - its so one sided and un-winnable for the fox).... therefore they are unlikely to be motivated to stay and grind to 25 and so you have a self-perpetuating circle of low playerbase and rampant PKing of the same low playerbase...

Introducing some risk to 25ers means that there is something a lower level player can do to meaningfully defend themselves and not just feel like the only reason the existing community wants new players is for fresh meat. My suggestion of un-levelling 25ers is basically one of buying time for yourself to continue playing/leveling while the ex-slayer needs to re-level 3.5m exp to get back to being a slayer (which will probably only take them an hour, but hey if they had killed you it would have wasted an hour of your leveling also right? - so its actually fair imho)... I totally agree with not allowing ppl to dip under their current levels for levels 1-24... but for 25ers who attack a lower player its just way too easy to bully with no repercussions at all --> something needs to make that more fair otherwise attracting and retaining playerbase is only increasingly going to become a pipe-dream as existing players accumulate more 25ers and new players are relegated even more to feeling like 'fresh meat' who lamely try to level away while being hunted/killed.

Even if you/your guildies etc actually manage to kill the PKing 25er now, you get no glory, no reward nothing... so instead of expending effort on playing and trying to beat them you will always opt to run away and most likely idle until a less risky time (ie not actively playing the game we all want them to be playing)... TOS bans just make ppl wait legalistically until they can do it again... it doesnt solve the main problem which is the new/lower player feels completely un-empowered to retaliate in any meaningful way... and hence is either discouraged to quit or cant be bothered playing actively

Lets face it.... most times the level 25 is most likely still going to win against the lower player... and so they should.... but at least this makes them think twice about causing someone else to waste more time on hateful leveling if they are also faced with the possibility of it backfiring on them.

Am open to a different/risk penalty being imposed... but i just dont see one that is as effective in naturally balancing the mechanic.... having a 25er risk getting un-leveled if killed by a sub-25er is basically implementing a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "dont dish out what you cant hack" principle... if an existing player is going to potentially cry and quit because they might possibly have to re-level their slayer some 3.5m exp then it is an effective system because they are more likely going to to have empathy for the new player who they were previously causing to have to continually re-level millions of EXP by repeatedly killing them (or choose not have empathy, and enjoy a more fair fight where the prey may just turn and lash out at you with a lucky shot). --> ie basically if you think its boring for the existing player to re-level then its also boring for the new player (much more so probably since they've never experienced the joys of endgame content yet)

That's all from me for now... may pipe in to clarify any misunderstandings regarding my suggestion or if i have anything new to add... but will otherwise like to hear what others think also (and hope people actually think with their "new player" hats on rather than their "scared slayer" hats)

[Eld]

Good suggestions Anthriel, I like the idea a lot in theory but I'm not sure how it'd work in practice.

What if the under 25er is in a group fight with 25ers and gets a lucky killshot?

What if a lvl 24 sorc fades, waits til 2 25ers are duelling, then zaps someone who's grave to screw them over?

What if you get a group of lvl 24 monks (4 attacks) sorcs etc. running around and PKing solo 25ers?

What if an under 25er is protected by a guardian but still fighting?

Also what happens to the very high gold cost for lvling to 25?


How about 25ers get cursed for dying to under 25ers,either restricted to the town's borders for 15 minutes, maybe they get restricted to 2 stamina for 20 minutes instead?

Maybe they have to take the equivalent of another driving test after losing their licence before they can attack under 25ers again

Maybe this would be some sorta gauntlet at their hideout that would require paying gold to run?

Maybe the curse wears off after 12h?

[anthriel]

Good suggestions Anthriel, I like the idea a lot in theory but I'm not sure how it'd work in practice.

What if the under 25er is in a group fight with 25ers and gets a lucky killshot?

What if a lvl 24 sorc fades, waits til 2 25ers are duelling, then zaps someone who's grave to screw them over?

What if you get a group of lvl 24 monks (4 attacks) sorcs etc. running around and PKing solo 25ers?

What if an under 25er is protected by a guardian but still fighting?

Also what happens to the very high gold cost for lvling to 25?


How about 25ers get cursed for dying to under 25ers,either restricted to the town's borders for 15 minutes, maybe they get restricted to 2 stamina for 20 minutes instead?

Maybe they have to take the equivalent of another driving test after losing their licence before they can attack under 25ers again

Maybe this would be some sorta gauntlet at their hideout that would require paying gold to run?

Maybe the curse wears off after 12h?

I agree we'd want to avoid any 'accidental' deaths from 25ers who were just say duelling each other etc and then got spited by a faded lvl 24 sorc... My quick solution idea for most of the scenarios you raised would be something like this: ... If a 25er successfully completes X number (I'm suggesting max 1or 2) of PKs on sub25ers per day they get automatically put on a "wanted/criminal list" for 24hrs where the un-levelling risk applies. This should hopefully allow most 25ers who are not picking on lowbies to remain relatively safe from being unitentionally unlevelled. As for gold cost of re-levelling, it's probably fair as it's unlikely the lowbie can pull off an underdog win anyway and most 25ers have much more resources than the avg lowbie new player they are killing. And once on 'wanted list' they can either choose to stop pking for day or carry on at their own risk. Plus there's nothing stopping ppl who enjoy more pking from picking on someone of their own level if they want to completely avoid the risk of the 'wanted list' altogether.

Basically we want to add risk to those engaging in unfair fights against new players and causing them to feel like their entire first 275-350mill exp of the game is nothing but being made to play the 'victim' (not an attractive proposition to most rpg players).... But also we don't want to remove fun of pking or endanger those who have worked hard and are just minding their own business ... Hopefully something like this satisfies those requirements

[Eld]

I agree we'd want to avoid any 'accidental' deaths from 25ers who were just say duelling each other etc and then got spited by a faded lvl 24 sorc... My quick solution idea for most of the scenarios you raised would be something like this: ... If a 25er successfully completes X number (I'm suggesting max 1or 2) of PKs on sub25ers per day they get automatically put on a "wanted/criminal list" for 24hrs where the un-levelling risk applies. This should hopefully allow most 25ers who are not picking on lowbies to remain relatively safe from being unitentionally unlevelled. As for gold cost of re-levelling, it's probably fair as it's unlikely the lowbie can pull off an underdog win anyway and most 25ers have much more resources than the avg lowbie new player they are killing. And once on 'wanted list' they can either choose to stop pking for day or carry on at their own risk. Plus there's nothing stopping ppl who enjoy more pking from picking on someone of their own level if they want to completely avoid the risk of the 'wanted list' altogether.

Basically we want to add risk to those engaging in unfair fights against new players and causing them to feel like their entire first 275-350mill exp of the game is nothing but being made to play the 'victim' (not an attractive proposition to most rpg players).... But also we don't want to remove fun of pking or endanger those who have worked hard and are just minding their own business ... Hopefully something like this satisfies those requirements

I like the restriction of this idea to only 25ers who've killed an under 25er, you're right that would solve most of the issues i raised.

Nice suggestion of the "wanted list", i did previously post something along those lines here but only intended it for when the game had a bigger playerbase: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1391
If that list were publically available I think most PKers would see that list as a badge of honour and you'd probably see an increase in the number of PKing activity.

However if the 25ers faced a real penalty of dying once they had been marked as most wanted this could be an interesting way of promoting PKing but also promoting PKKing.

I do reiterate that the cost of re-levelling to 25 cost would be too expensive for many people though, I personally would struggle with paying another 50k gold to relevel a 25er.

[JadeFalcon]

Ok, now i think everyone is over-engineering this.

The fact is, unless you want to die, PKing is hard. In my best days I can kill perhaps 5 people in 2/3 hours.

[Eld]

Ok, now i think everyone is over-engineering this.

The fact is, unless you want to die, PKing is hard. In my best days I can kill perhaps 5 people in 2/3 hours.

As a follow up I've been discussing this with JF and actually ended up making his point for him...

These are the only obits for the past 17.5 hours:

[07:07] 4/27/2017 9:32:34 PM - Torrid brutally impaled Kinetic!
[07:07] 4/27/2017 9:34:27 PM - Torrid ripped out Sage's entrails!
[07:07] 4/27/2017 9:44:39 PM - A shadow assassin erased MonsterBasher to nothing!
[07:07] 4/27/2017 10:43:20 PM - LuBu has murdered Rael!
[07:07] 4/27/2017 10:44:33 PM - LuBu totally annihilated Rael!
[07:07] 4/27/2017 10:54:57 PM - Rael polished the floors with Crowther's guts!
[07:07] 4/27/2017 11:37:41 PM - A deranged remnant eviscerated Nebula!
[07:07] 4/28/2017 1:19:29 AM - Madame Clucks A Lot polished the floors with DirtyMike's guts!
[07:07] Server Time: Friday, April 28, 2017 - 2:07:24 PM


4 under 25er deaths, 3 were to NPCs, and 1 was someone killing a thief.

I don't think much actual PKing actually happens in this game, but I don't know how many people have been chased back into town because of it, etc.

[Adramelk]

@ Losing a level for dying to a non-25er. That is just obscene.

I do like the wanted list/bounty board. The more a 25er a racks up kills in a day, the harsher the penalty for him and greater the reward for the person that finally takes them down.

Or even an active bounty board on 25ers only. So people who have been abused, the tender snowflakes that you are.. could place X amount of gold on Player A to get got.

[daedroth]

I guess as a recent new player, my own experience/feeling was that there is literally NOTHING that someone can do to affect a 25er who is bullying them while they are leveling (hence probably why many cases result in damaging flame messages which further exacerbates more pking or counter productive bans happening) ...

Did you try talking to the pker?
Also I think you might be seeing being pkd as being bullied?
Or was the pker actually pk'ing you many times over a short period of time (as in breaking the ToS)?
Was the pker paging you with harrassment?
If you actually are being bullied, then report them.