Race Stat Changes

[NiteHawk]

I also made Proposal #17 and based it off Half-Orcs HP being unchanged. With 21 END they would have 1200 HP as they do now.

This is by no means the NEWEST proposal again guys. The idea was to raise HP a little more then #14. Might be too much, though HOs are lowered END by 1 (yet again, still get 21 END).

It probably is too much though, who knows.

You got to also remember when you change things like saurians ETC you are benefiting other races obviously too, but on the other side of the spectrum. With 15, 17, etc.

Obviously you can go the other way and +1 end all the races that didn't get END but leave the races that get -1 END to no change It's just easier this way.

[Terron]

i dont actually get the halfling comparison. who cares if they suck as a wizard overall, noone cares that a gnome cav sucks. halfling mage is like the worst choice they have. i admit it, i knew ling mage blew before i even made one and trained it to 24. oh well its the price to be different. sucking. halflings arent meant to be warriors or wizards their skills interpret rogue/archer. however the rogue/ranger skills in most games favor str str str instead of int and agility like originally designed by gary gyjax in 1967. at a minimum archer damage should be 75% agi /25% str and assassin damage 50/50.

i admit i did forget gnome mages didnt have 23 int already, +1'd all mine. oops. i didn't intend suggesting for elf to sit 22 int same as gnome on the otherhand in a dead comparison elf is already worse than gnome so why is gnome up for the +1. +1 them both.
even just adding +1 to int on the gnome, the point has to be taken from chr or wis either going to lose 12 hps or some mr.

also i cant see penalizing several gnomes to benefit 1 class that already does top damage in its respective class. agi is more of a melee stat anyway its just defense for a mage. comparing mages and argueing over agi points is a mute point as it doesnt affect any mage fight and all mages rip lizards apart.

in this u have a bunch of mages with irrelevant stats
lizards - pointless
dwarf - has negation which basically lowers opponents int by -1.25, massive hps enough to outclass most average wizards, slays lizards
human/helf higher hp mediocre mages more well rounded than all the rest(pick these for mage )
d/e = a slightly more stupid elf that can see in the dark x 22 19 20 20 x when facing melee or magic
ling = cant compete with other mages because agi is irrelevant in that aspect x x 17(+1) 20 20 x is ouch , so a lings optimal mage stats are 10 23 18 20 11 22 (rape dem lizards with your super hp linger)
elf x 21 19 21 21 x vs mage, x 22 19 21 20 x vs melee
elemental 10 17 21 21 23 10 vs mage 20 20 21 21 for melee

gnome gets x 21 17 23 22 12 both ways, there really isnt the option to buff the other stats because even with a +1 you cant surpass any other mage option in survivability. however if you grant +1 agi and +1 int they will sit at 10 chr lowering hps by 25 on average. meaning a +1 on end gets 50 hps at the loss of 25, +1ing agility makes them a ling 23 17 22 22, +1 ing int leaves them relatively the same. they are better at mage vs mage no matter how you make one. so if they get a buff at all id suggest making the halfling mage look stupid by granting 1 extra agility to gnomes it helps gnomes survive and detracts nothing from any other mage builds.

[Lateralus]

Think I like 16 the best it addresses the problems the most and keeps races unique. When I look at that there are a few combos I'd be interested to try out and explore. I think 17 bunches up the races a little too much and there isn't much uniqueness.

I understand no one is going to agree on everything but if shit doesn't work we can always adjust. It's not like you are dm dropping in once every 2 years and this is our only shot. At this point you are right we have made a full circle rotation and option 17 is basically adding +1 to everyone.

I still see 0 reasons why we would attach mr or sr to body armors (unless they are unique special items).

Putting high mr on cloth and medium means you have to adjust to the current formulas. Then you have to worry about every heavy and medium armor person carrying around an extra body armor for caster fights because that's what will happen. Even if you class lock cloth to chanters and necro how would that help? Caster fights already take forever why do we want this longer? This makes zero sense and just adds more work and complexity.

I run at least half the events in the game I see pvp quite a bit and have a good handle on the balances or races and classes this really does not improve anything.

[NiteHawk]

Think I like 16 the best it addresses the problems the most and keeps races unique. When I look at that there are a few combos I'd be interested to try out and explore. I think 17 bunches up the races a little too much and there isn't much uniqueness.

I understand no one is going to agree on everything but if shit doesn't work we can always adjust. It's not like you are dm dropping in once every 2 years and this is our only shot. At this point you are right we have made a full circle rotation and option 17 is basically adding +1 to everyone.

I still see 0 reasons why we would attach mr or sr to body armors (unless they are unique special items).

Putting high mr on cloth and medium means you have to adjust to the current formulas. Then you have to worry about every heavy and medium armor person carrying around an extra body armor for caster fights because that's what will happen. Even if you class lock cloth to chanters and necro how would that help? Caster fights already take forever why do we want this longer? This makes zero sense and just adds more work and complexity.

I run at least half the events in the game I see pvp quite a bit and have a good handle on the balances or races and classes this really does not improve anything.

In terms of #16, it didn't work because it overshadowed elf (as ant discussed). It was a neat idea but doesn't really work in practice sine the stats are very close to each other. I'll try to think up something else though or maybe we will try to aim to change how INT works for spells so there is more of an effect to help gnomes too.

[Terron]

try to balance hp and damage inadequacies with all buffs.

mage fights last forever because it is the equivalent of a race between 10 agility slayers trying to hit a 24 agi halfling 10x. (25% hit rate mage fights because of an exponential mr system) this is purely because magic has no static form for hitting like agility does. if you want hit rates of 25-75 for magic and only 30-50 for melee that's up to you.

as far as the armor thing, i was only proposing moving the damage reduction off of wisdom and onto armor only. wisdom would still be your defense. 50 spell armor on your cloth wouldn't save you with 10 wis, same as 50 armor on your platemail wont save you with 10 agility. people may carry two armors around i guess if they wanted, but most likely theyd just pick what to wear before hand or before a duel/pk trip. i really doubt your berserker will be running cloth over medium, so he takes a huge detriment vs any melee person. if the player wanted to "stack up" against mage hed just use a different race.

the real part of it you are skipping, is the first part, magic gettng a static hit rate of 40% exactly like agility. without this it doesnt work and doesn't even need mentioned.

goblins look silly with the huge MR bonus, cant you give them +1 wis 1 stat alloc point and -5% mana as a race and take that away. it does make them appear as magic tanks. goblin does read like "i exist here as an alternative so players never use a human for melee for i get mr for free and have better agility"

NH almost everything outshines elf.

[Terron]

In terms of #16, it didn't work because it overshadowed elf (as ant discussed). It was a neat idea but doesn't really work in practice sine the stats are very close to each other. I'll try to think up something else though or maybe we will try to aim to change how INT works for spells so there is more of an effect to help gnomes too.

could maybe each int point add an additional 0.4 damage. seems like an odd number, but 20 int gains 8 damage, 23 int would gain 9.2. its pretty close to what 1 extra int would have added. could be like .35 and make gnome 23 int gain 8 damage as intended, just looked better as the flat 8 gained at 20 int.

as far as what i meant by everything above;

in a mage fight ling cant realistically win unless swatting each other with sticks. (10 23 18 20 10 21 is the best mage option they have, albeit it is weird)

a goblin in practicality can +1 str and sit at 20 22 20 and get nearly identical MR to a human/helf( in the scenario as a cav or zerk for example the human can realistically only select +1 on wisdom to set it apart slightly +1 wis isnt really practical on a warrior build as youd just pick a dwarf) im not 100% against that this happens i just feel human is under utilized and doesnt have that wow factor unless its a class that benefits most from potion use(cleric/mage)

gnome taking a -3 alloc hit will cripple everything that is good about alot of their builds.(they suck enough)
bards lose all the extra mr they have over ling and elf(no reason to lose agility and strength for 0 extra MR)
rangers(only race that gets a decently high mr on ranger)
clerics guards lose valuable mana pool the only feature that makes a gnome pally distinct
the rest will lose hps or MR based on losing 3 chr/wis in combination.

as for elf, they get outshined because 15% fizzle reduction isnt an adequate boost to warrant using x p p p -1 x. in almost every choice a half elf can cover the stats that an elf does. x 22 19 x x x. ideally leaving the half elf with 4 chr boosting it even further for the penalty of 7.5% fizzles and a choice of -1 agi or int. on the mage/cleric side of it i think elves need +1 int and +2 alloc points so they can sit at xppppx with a +1 and be closer to helf. this definitely would make a gnome need +1 int. and may OP their bards. so it leaves me a tad indecisive.

as a whole i would argue gnome needs more agi, but it may not be 100% needed with agi buff. +1 int for -3 points is outright awful. and elves need something badly. so basically im siding with:

gnome +1 int -1 allocation point (doesnt hit melee builds as drastic, and the mage will lose all chr bonus)
elf +1 int +2 allocation (allows for xppppx caster same as gnome elf keeps its bonus +1 agi/end gnome keeps its bonus +1 wis/int)
this is what i depicted to fix these caster races a bit and detract the least possible from their melee counterparts.

[Dan]

Why not giving gnomes the +1 agi dodge?

Why not -1 agi or str hos?

[Terron]

i think the +1 gnome agility was dropped becayse they become an elf with extra everything

im not sure the horc needs a nerf, sure they hit hard. the agi buff is more than adequate for the time being. saurians are already better in almost every way and get even better with agi.

also previously mentioned by nh the next two classes added to game will likely be magic. so theres the "new hype" factor that will shadow horc's usage for a few months.

[Dan]

A +1 dodge agi gnome becomes an elf with more everything?

I am pretty sure that was not reason bc i cant even imagine stats wise or passive racial bonus wise how that would be true.

[Terron]

The only 2nd thought I had re +1 dodge Agi on "little people" is that with gnomes you could technically +1 endurance and effectivly get a better than best elf sorcerer for the most part (ie 22 dodge Agi, 18 End and better int/wis... Only niche left for elf sorcerer to be better is if they choose to +1 End themselves ). .

i think that was the one

again ,
gnome +1 int -1 allocation point (doesnt hit melee builds as drastic, and the mage will lose all chr bonus)
elf +1 int +2 allocation (allows for xppppx caster same as gnome elf keeps its bonus +1 agi/end gnome keeps its bonus +1 wis/int)
this is what i depicted to fix these caster races a bit and detract the least possible from their melee counterparts.

seems to be the best option to diversify casters and set all of the races apart, without changing anything drastic in the melee builds.