Race Stat Changes

[Lateralus]

I see both sides of argument. On one hand I appreciate that Lat just wants to get changes in quickly and do so at a more incremental/manageable rate. This is practical. But I do think that in trying to get this accomplished, his consistent posts effecively saying "calm down, all is well" can be perceived as "shut downs" of ideas and could possibly discourage the culture of ppl caring enough to make future contributions on MBs (which was an issue earlier in this thread)

I really like Terron's ideas and think his aims to change stuff more could unlock a lot of potential in the game. However we probably do need to move slower in order for community to 'catch up' and agree to any bigger changes along the way. Shrugs I see 22 pages of discussion as a good thing, not a bad one. Better to have a game where ppl care enough about the game to post, than one where ppl cbb posting cos they know what certain ppl are going to say back anyway.

I'm by no means am saying discussions are bad or tying to put them down or shut them down. I'm saying what we already have is pretty complicated if we have 22 pages of people discussing and we are still unable to make a decision. Add 2-4 extra layers of complexity on that and it could easily be 100 pages and 2-3 months down the road before anything gets done. I'm not saying toss out terrons ideas either I'm saying let's maybe take this a step at a time get something in and then step back and look instead of trying to do 5 things at once that may completely change the game. Even adding a small layer just multiples complexity of everything else.

[Terron]

like i said its just free input, i know the SR system works. and i did just throw it out there kinda in a fashion due to such few magical options lol. i feel the number 1 inadequacy of ember is player created. and it isnt a bad reason. when you hop on a game you dont play 1 character you play every class atleast once making the most out of it. in this case the game is 10/12ths melee. noones fault it just is what it is.

an example:
robes 9 ac 47 SR
plate mail 47 ac 9 SR
plate mail +3 50 ac 9 SR
resistant platemail +3 47 ac 12 SR
shimmering platemail +3 50 ac 12 SR
etc (although i know magic damage is less than melee so the trade off would probably have to see 5% less SR on each piece)

i like the gear options aswell, more to find, more to get, more to balance on your character , more to play

also i found my entire class list and skills from my rpg so im swapping some skills around to fit ember.(wasnt sure i had it all here) ill post by tomorrow hopefully 9 or 10 classes that might balance out the game with some more magical classes and mixture ones.

[Lateralus]

like i said its just free input, i know the SR system works. and i did just throw it out there kinda in a fashion due to such few magical options lol. i feel the number 1 inadequacy of ember is player created. and it isnt a bad reason. when you hop on a game you dont play 1 character you play every class atleast once making the most out of it. in this case the game is 10/12ths melee. noones fault it just is what it is.

an example:
robes 9 ac 47 SR
plate mail 47 ac 9 SR
plate mail +3 50 ac 9 SR
resistant platemail +3 47 ac 12 SR
shimmering platemail +3 50 ac 12 SR
etc (although i know magic damage is less than melee so the trade off would probably have to see 5% less SR on each piece)

i like the gear options aswell, more to find, more to get, more to balance on your character , more to play

also i found my entire class list and skills from my rpg so im swapping some skills around to fit ember.(wasnt sure i had it all here) ill post by tomorrow hopefully 9 or 10 classes that might balance out the game with some more magical classes and mixture ones.

Im not sure how that doesnt complicate things?

adding mr to armors adds a whole other layer to armors. I can see certain special armors maybe having bonus spell absorb but you are talking about rewriting how all armors work in the game.

This means a rewrite of how the following would work:
ac - game is currently balanced for armor to only have ac but now it works as mr too so youll have to adjust all ac values in game as well

mr - now that armor gives mr you have to rewrite how wis works. it becomes less important now a dump stat in some cases. slayers just start using cloth etc... classes like paladins now have low mr why?

spells and casting - will have to recalculate and adjust how spells and pen works considering new mr values

Thats just the pvp side with all those changes youll have to look at the pve side as well...

you might say hey well we will make it so slayers wont want to wear cloth well that means you gotta rebalance that system etc too.


I mean your basically talking about undertaking a rewrite of a majority of the games defensive and offensive systems. I dont understand how you dont see this to be a huge undertaking and balancing issue.

Then you wanna add 10 classes to the system on top of that?


Look im sure you have some good ideas ive even seen a few already in this thread but rewriting the game i think is a little overboard. Adding 9-10 classes totally changes the game we are still trying to balance the classes we have.

[Terron]

implement them now before this commercial is over.... dont be naive, just keep adding them over whatever period you feel is comfortable lol.

1) ac doesnt change at all

2) just omit the mr from wisdom
open codesource >highlite>delete

3a) spells would do full damage to everyone mitigated by your new SR value and any racial/class bonuses
(this eliminates exponential x*y*z= we have to put a random number here to make this "goblin" work right)
3b) you must have missed the part where i stated casting just be int vs wisdom for a stotic hit rate like agility.
(this means you can copy most of the agility code and change melee to spells and agi vs agi to int vs wis)
(40%, +2 per int, -2 per opponents wisdom (23 int gnome hits 23 wis elemental 40% yay)) again a calculator helps

4) the only thing you are changing is item descriptions and adding choice to armors, the choice isnt even affecting every class. most can only wear cloth anyway.

5a) right now wisdom affects the damage you receive, unaffects on you, and how easy you are to be hit with spells. triple whammy. as opposed to only having to address balance issues by the race/class that is having the issue. you have two or three problems and want a flatline system that sways every character ingame slightly.

5b) anything truely out of the box can be fixed with a piece of gear or a direct stat change later. harder now easier later. best thing about it, im not behind the scenes with 10 people discussing it this time.

6) yes more classes.
do i expect them tomorrow? no
do i expect them soon? no
do i expect them in the future? yes
are more magical choices needed? in my opinion yes
do i feel the game would be alot more balanced if half the players were on magic users right now? yes
in order to achieve a better balance of magic and melee characters, will we need more magic classes? yes
again, am i posting opportunities for class builds for free and with my own time? yes
do i hope you'll enjoy them? yes, so enjoy it when i post
do rhetorical questions blow? not when used correctly

for funny) currently there are, for lack of a better word, lizards roaming the earth with immense melee skills. however, these lizards are forced to run anywhere from 10 to 13 wisdom to achieve such greatness. it is fine however as mages are very scarce in numbers. 3 to be exact. there's Radagast the brown(dont trust him with your pets), the color changing gandalf and the emo sarumon. these powerful wizards are much too busy leveling their own lizards for the pit fight next week to care about any other lizards.

[NiteHawk]

I would prefer keeping spell resistance mostly on wisdom. But I thought we were talking about spell negation on armor. I.E. Spell negation as in damage reduction. Making SR mostly armor means that wisdom is more useless and I don't really like that to be honest. Spell negation though lat doesn't NEED to be based on the armor type either. I mean, it could be, but you could also just add a level of different armors via having a armor value and a spell negation value on each. There is tons of ways you can go about this. In this game, even 10-15% negation goes a long way in actual fights and you are looking at around 10% negation right now with high wisdom. I think it would make more sense to me otherwise again, wisdom is completely garbage if its separated as that is the 'main thing' you get wisdom for, not the damage negation.

Feel free to post the classes though obviously it's something that will be reviewed and looked after. I don't think I'm going to be adding 9 classes though to start. Probably more like 2-3 first once I figure and balance out things. Doesn't hurt to post everything though for ideas and whatnot and it's interesting to see.

In the end though this is probably not a racial issue and could be discussed on a separate thread cause I think we are derailing again I would like to hear the ideas though but I would think armor could have a spell damage reduction, not a spell resistance in order to keep wisdom useful. Don't take it as I don't want to hear it though, it's just that I think we need to keep things organized when we're 22 pages deep. Things gonna be lost in the sea of pages.

[daedroth]

Aye, this is a "Race Stat Changes" thread, so best we stick to that aye. This thread is a massive wall of text as it is.
If you have new ideas post them in the Request/Suggestions section.
Please and thank you and all that tosh.

[NiteHawk]

The only 2nd thought I had re +1 dodge Agi on "little people" is that with gnomes you could technically +1 endurance and effectivly get a better than best elf sorcerer for the most part (ie 22 dodge Agi, 18 End and better int/wis... Only niche left for elf sorcerer to be better is if they choose to +1 End themselves ).

Therefore to address this, it possible to restrict the "little people dodge bonus" to only applying if Lings/gnomes keep 17end (ie don't bulk up)... Perhaps instead of a racial bonus for Lings/gnomes it could therefore apply to any race who decided to keep 17 end or under (i can't really see it being abused cos what user of other races in their right mind would want to choose 17 end / less HP willingly lol)... I know it does potentially complicate the hidden stats somewhat (which NH doesn't like) but it is a possible imbalance issue between gnome/elf mages that occurred to me so I wanted to point it out in case others had any ideas.

That seems like a weird idea to do and would be confusing. We got to keep it simple I think. Your right though it does shadow and that's not good cause obviously dodge is only needed for magic user, they don't care about the attack agi unless they are druid or something similar.

The proposal is probably to take off -3 alloc points off gnome as they already have the highest at 109. This means that gnomes would also have to sacrifice something to +1 like elves currently do, though they'd have to sacrifice 2 which makes sense when you look at the stats. So you're looking at a 10 21 18 23 20 10 gnome or a 10 22 19 21 20 10 elf. This means that the allocation points max is 106 for all the MR based races and brings them more in line. It kind of makes sense then and keeps elves as a OK other solution if you aim to +1, without the odd mechanic of 17 end = agi bonus, 18 end = not.

[Terron]

yes the SR on armor would lower damage directly(same as ac), the wis stat would affect hit rate of spells vs you and all that jazz. imo its just a better system not because i helped create it on an mmo and xferred it to a paper rpg, and not because your setup is straight awful(cuz it isnt bad at all) it just elimiantes stacks of stat effects aswell as makes future changes more easily addressed.

as far as the topic, prop 15 isnt bad but i still think the "void" of magic causes alot of this.

[NiteHawk]

yes the SR on armor would lower damage directly(same as ac), the wis stat would affect hit rate of spells vs you and all that jazz. imo its just a better system not because i helped create it on an mmo and xferred it to a paper rpg, and not because your setup is straight awful(cuz it isnt bad at all) it just elimiantes stacks of stat effects aswell as makes future changes more easily addressed.

as far as the topic, prop 15 isnt bad but i still think the "void" of magic causes alot of this.

Yeah sorry whenever you say resistance instead of negation I think MR instead of spell damage reduction I think that's what lat is thinking too and IMO would be right to assess that doing MR on armors would make wisdom a useless stat.

[Terron]

when did prop 15 get deleted...

when you compare the typical chanters

gnome sacrifices agi and end for int and wis when compared to an elf for extra damage, boost to mr, and a larger mana pool

10 21 17 23 22 12 vs 10 22 18 22 20 10

sitting with 10 21 18 23 20 10 gnome or a 10 22 19 21 20 10 elf
the gnome loses most of its bonus mr, still takes the hit to dodge and hps and gains 8 damage. those builds look very similar and elf is better. just looks like gnome loses all its old benefits for 8 more damage.

in rough translation you have gnome blank, get hit more, die faster, do more damage, get hit more, blank. that option damages even my optimism.

i also have a few gnome melee builds that would just be ripped apart even further with -3 allocation. thats a serious ouch.
Lisa stop him...