Are assassins crappy to play? If yes, what should we do?

[NiteHawk]

Lots of strong ideas in here and so far noone saying Assassins are fine as they are (albeit with a small sample size)


Out of the ideas proposed so far my favourites are:

1. Have /hide, then a delay before you can attack. This gives people the chance to /search you out as now and shouldn't make assassins any more powerful/weaker than they are now, assuming the delay isnt too long/short.
2. Interesting idea to change /track to act more similarly to how /stalk used to.
How about we keep /track as it is, and reintroduce /stalk?
3. Infravision should be either altered entirely or reduced on some levelling monsters as being found straight after hiding is a bit ridiculous
4. We should definitely introduce the /sneak command from rok, so you can sneak one square at a time. This was great for avoiding dragging monsters and just generally being a sneaky bastard misdirecting people.

Finally, interesting post about what skills Assassins have in D&D, there could be a lot of potential for cool ideas taken from there.
However i vaguely remember something from rok where i think poison could be applied to daggers but then it was promptly removed afterwards?
(i think due to the poison/double death bug that DM never bothered fixing)

Some monsters have too high INFRA: it's not 1 to 100. Adding the infra value is like adding INT to the character, without the other bonuses that INT gives. You need your own INT to prevent being found though, and it 'DOES' matter in EO. Some monsters however might be borked and have insta find that needs to be fixed, aka someone giving a monster too high infra. Sometimes people think infra is 0 to 100 and then they have 100 int search base because of it. I don't think it's the mobs fault, I think the system is OK, I think it's to do more with the way build has implemented it and it needs to be looked at. I don't mind adjusting it on NPCs if we feel its too high in general, but if you expect to hide with your saurian or HO well with no INT, then ya'll can cry me a river. Not saying though that it should be 100% find rate even with those races, but still.

I do not want a timer delay on hide I think. It feels weird to me to have it because no other system uses it. One thing that was brought up in the past was simply not having to move back and forth (maybe unless you are found) and then the damage multiplier could be reduced. Obviously having 4.5x damage with no delay issues would be op as hell because you're simply doing mega damage with no delay.

[daedroth]

... I do not want a timer delay on hide I think ...

Could flip it and have it made into a delay before you could hide again. Though it would kinda be the same thing but with someone having less of a chance to find you, so I guess not.

So is there any plan then?

[Styx]

I'd rather have Slayer on same square to hide to I can hit them rather then run off, heal up, then come back, after you wasted your time trying to search then run around looking for them.

Therefor /flank and if player can flank the enemy then they can backstabbing. If they fail to flank then no backstabbing. This way more chance involved for Slayer.

[JadeFalcon]

I'd rather have Slayer on same square to hide to I can hit them rather then run off, heal up, then come back, after you wasted your time trying to search then run around looking for them.

Therefor /flank and if player can flank the enemy then they can backstabbing. If they fail to flank then no backstabbing. This way more chance involved for Slayer.

This actually is a very good point. I dont think anyone apreciates this (those playing the slayer, and those on the opposite end)


I will also add a request: Can we have a counter displaying how many movements with have until autosneak exhaust? Its really annoying not knowing.

[Styx]

I just figure instead of complicating /hide, add new command then you can set values on ability to backstabbing. If it's op then nighthawk can change and adjust it so it's less op, dumb idea just gotta see which way it goes

[Folder]

I'd rather have Slayer on same square to hide to I can hit them rather then run off, heal up, then come back, after you wasted your time trying to search then run around looking for them.

Therefor /flank and if player can flank the enemy then they can backstabbing. If they fail to flank then no backstabbing. This way more chance involved for Slayer.

This actually is a very good point. I dont think anyone apreciates this (those playing the slayer, and those on the opposite end)


I will also add a request: Can we have a counter displaying how many movements with have until autosneak exhaust? Its really annoying not knowing.

I actually do appreciate this. I think it's part of strategic gameplay. Autosneak is not a set # of squares, so a countdown isn't possible.

You can NOT nerf slayers in doing this. Some of these suggestions talking about lowering their damage are, well, just not good. Slayers do not dominate right now, and they do not need a nerf. The whole point of this is to make them competitive and also useful on OaDs. If they get nerfed in the process of "fixing" them then what's the point?

[daedroth]

...Autosneak is not a set # of squares, so a countdown isn't possible...

You can NOT nerf slayers in doing this. Some of these suggestions talking about lowering their damage are, well, just not good. Slayers do not dominate right now, and they do not need a nerf. The whole point of this is to make them competitive and also useful on OaDs. If they get nerfed in the process of "fixing" them then what's the point?

Actually I think autosneak got changed so it was a set amount of squares based on INT + LVL no?

And yeh, no nerf please!

Ideas so far:

1) Some kind of pause/delay to the hide/backstab but no need to move
2) Critical strike (random and based on INT or AGL or just level) for normal attacks
3) Backstab uses all attacks, damage increased accordingly no need to move (still need to hide)
4) Burst of speed for normal attacks
5) Flank attack
6) Showing how much autosneak movement you have left (assuming it is a set amount based on INT + LVL)

I have been resiting saying this... (I have done well so far) but if thieves can use bows why not assassins (rooftop shootings anyone?)... there I have said it!

[JadeFalcon]

[NiteHawk]

But you guys surely must see the issue with having 4.5x attack per two attacks if theres no delay anymore right? That needs to be addressed somehow.

You are virtually making them berserkers with perma 2.5x damage rage.

/flanking is one thing but if it fails alot then people will bitch. In peoples heads they don't like things that unaffect or fail at higher levels, it gets annoying to players (just to state). I would rather have 4/4 attacks that are successful at 3x damage rather then 2/4 attacks that are successful at 6x damage (both values aren't part of the game, just giving an example.).. Successful being fail proof, not dodge.

[daedroth]

But you guys surely must see the issue with having 4.5x attack per two attacks if theres no delay anymore right? That needs to be addressed somehow...

.../flanking is one thing but if it fails alot then people will bitch. In peoples heads they don't like things that unaffect or fail at higher levels, it gets annoying to players (just to state).

Backstab could stay as it is, and if it is changed (esp. to something with no delay) damage could be lowered to reflect the change.

Could even keep the old backstab method and change it to "Ambush" (yes I know thieves with bows ambush, but lets turn all backstabs into ambush?), and introduce a partial hide that does less damage but requires no movement (this could be "backstab" or "sniper/aimed shot" for thieves with bow) or delay but does less damage.

If backstab is going to remain the same then they will need some alternative attack form for when backstab is impractical or just cannot be done (although I like the "stairs" at the vila's etc, I still find them a bit silly and if there was an alternative to backstab or a change to the mechanic, they could all get disposed off).

The /flank or critical hit or whatever is to be introduced could do normal damage if it fails (and is not dodged) and extra damage if it succeeds, but using just one attack.

You cannot always cater for people who whine about their attacks failing (unless there is a serious balance issue).

PS. I think this should apply to thieves as well since they are also affected.


Some context from this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1230&start=30

21 Str (oads gear, no dual wielding, no RH/Fury) Damage Potential:
Pally: 151 - 203, 604 - 812
Knight: 161- 217, 644 - 868
Barb: 163 - 220, 652 - 880
Assy: 406 - 565, 912 - 1130 (backstabbing), 101 - 141, 404 - 564 (normal attack)
Ninja: 151 - 181, 755 - 905

Using Ambush/backstab ideas above:
Ambush: as is 406 - 565, 912 - 1130 (backstabbing)
Backstab: Base damage x3 303 - 423, 606 - 846 (2 attacks used) or 3.5 353 - 493, 706 - 986
Critical/flank attack: Chance to do up to x2 damage? 101 to 202 - 141 to 282, 404 to 808 - 564 to 1128 (1 attack used)

Just rough idea, in no way am I saying they are good!
Even just increase base damage and decrease backstab damage accordingly?
Eh... gl deciphering that gibberish, brainstorming is never pretty for me.