PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

[Cyrus]

Why should lings be only a tiny bit worse in combat than half orcs? They have a great difference in MR...

[Mujahideen]

Why should lings be only a tiny bit worse in combat than half orcs? They have a great difference in MR...

Good point, you gotta compare orcs to lizards.

[NiteHawk]

Why should lings be only a tiny bit worse in combat than half orcs? They have a great difference in MR...

Good point, you gotta compare orcs to lizards.

'
There is very little different in the two though.

I am comparing them because MR won't be as bad as it is now either when we fix it. You should still have a chance to kill a magic user without getting face stomped 100% of the time. It's one extreme to another, that is.


Also, with randomness in effect people prefer HO's/dwarfs/saurians/etc most of the time because you can get higher chances to kill them at lower rounds, but obviously has the effect that it can take longer too.

I.E. if half orcs to kill a target take 8 to 18 rounds, and lings are 12 to 14 rounds. They equally are the same average wise. However, when your in lets say,a group of 3 half orcs, theres far higher chance that you'll get rounded and at least one of the half orcs will hit that shiny 8-10 rounds, etc. And that alone is probably a reason why you don't need to make a huge AGI difference when it comes to physical attacking.

[NiteHawk]

Actually, I fucked up. For some reason I was thinking HO's had 22 str. It's 24str obv, so that's 164-211 without div.

HO vs Ling:
HO Wins: 624577 (62.5%)
Liing Wins: 375423 (37.5%)

HO killing Ling

6 attacks to death: 92 (0.01%)
7 attacks to death: 557 (0.09%)
8 attacks to death: 1685 (0.27%)
9 attacks to death: 4046 (0.65%)
10 attacks to death: 7577 (1.21%)
11 attacks to death: 12334 (1.97%)
12 attacks to death: 18293 (2.93%)
13 attacks to death: 24839 (3.98%)
14 attacks to death: 31583 (5.06%)
15 attacks to death: 37857 (6.06%)
16 attacks to death: 43134 (6.91%)
17 attacks to death: 47327 (7.58%)
18 attacks to death: 49301 (7.89%)
19 attacks to death: 49478 (7.92%)
20 attacks to death: 48145 (7.71%)
21 attacks to death: 44533 (7.13%)
22 attacks to death: 40216 (6.44%)
23 attacks to death: 34953 (5.6%)
24 attacks to death: 29829 (4.78%)
25 attacks to death: 24570 (3.93%)
26 attacks to death: 19576 (3.13%)
27 attacks to death: 15233 (2.44%)
28 attacks to death: 11564 (1.85%)
29 attacks to death: 8502 (1.36%)
30 attacks to death: 6185 (0.99%)
31 attacks to death: 4294 (0.69%)
32 attacks to death: 3047 (0.49%)
33 attacks to death: 2048 (0.33%)
34 attacks to death: 1337 (0.21%)
35 attacks to death: 894 (0.14%)

Ling killing HO

6 attacks to death: 0 (0%)
7 attacks to death: 0 (0%)
8 attacks to death: 0 (0%)
9 attacks to death: 0 (0%)
10 attacks to death: 6 (0%)
11 attacks to death: 92 (0.02%)
12 attacks to death: 458 (0.12%)
13 attacks to death: 1564 (0.42%)
14 attacks to death: 3660 (0.97%)
15 attacks to death: 7360 (1.96%)
16 attacks to death: 12290 (3.27%)
17 attacks to death: 17987 (4.79%)
18 attacks to death: 23902 (6.37%)
19 attacks to death: 28815 (7.68%)
20 attacks to death: 32772 (8.73%)
21 attacks to death: 34671 (9.24%)
22 attacks to death: 34931 (9.3%)
23 attacks to death: 32556 (8.67%)
24 attacks to death: 29617 (7.89%)
25 attacks to death: 26265 (7%)
26 attacks to death: 21656 (5.77%)
27 attacks to death: 17563 (4.68%)
28 attacks to death: 13758 (3.66%)
29 attacks to death: 10300 (2.74%)
30 attacks to death: 7695 (2.05%)
31 attacks to death: 5509 (1.47%)
32 attacks to death: 3896 (1.04%)
33 attacks to death: 2810 (0.75%)
34 attacks to death: 1826 (0.49%)
35 attacks to death: 1289 (0.34%)

[NiteHawk]

HO vs Saurian. I was half asleep when I wrote the above comment, I get yee for comparison.

HO Wins: 436309 (43.6%)
Saurian Wins: 563691 (56.4%)

HO killing Saurian

7 attacks to death: 121 (0.03%)
8 attacks to death: 631 (0.14%)
9 attacks to death: 1890 (0.43%)
10 attacks to death: 4165 (0.95%)
11 attacks to death: 7783 (1.78%)
12 attacks to death: 12408 (2.84%)
13 attacks to death: 18450 (4.23%)
14 attacks to death: 24282 (5.57%)
15 attacks to death: 30010 (6.88%)
16 attacks to death: 34551 (7.92%)
17 attacks to death: 37845 (8.67%)
18 attacks to death: 38713 (8.87%)
19 attacks to death: 37788 (8.66%)
20 attacks to death: 35652 (8.17%)
21 attacks to death: 31738 (7.27%)
22 attacks to death: 27410 (6.28%)
23 attacks to death: 22574 (5.17%)
24 attacks to death: 18374 (4.21%)
25 attacks to death: 14384 (3.3%)
26 attacks to death: 10935 (2.51%)
27 attacks to death: 8224 (1.88%)
28 attacks to death: 5856 (1.34%)
29 attacks to death: 4199 (0.96%)
30 attacks to death: 2844 (0.65%)
31 attacks to death: 1962 (0.45%)
32 attacks to death: 1286 (0.29%)
33 attacks to death: 868 (0.2%)
34 attacks to death: 527 (0.12%)
35 attacks to death: 355 (0.08%)

Saurian killing HO

7 attacks to death: 0 (0%)
8 attacks to death: 13 (0%)
9 attacks to death: 232 (0.04%)
10 attacks to death: 1225 (0.22%)
11 attacks to death: 3867 (0.69%)
12 attacks to death: 8491 (1.51%)
13 attacks to death: 15588 (2.77%)
14 attacks to death: 24179 (4.29%)
15 attacks to death: 33412 (5.93%)
16 attacks to death: 42221 (7.49%)
17 attacks to death: 48741 (8.65%)
18 attacks to death: 52757 (9.36%)
19 attacks to death: 53112 (9.42%)
20 attacks to death: 51115 (9.07%)
21 attacks to death: 47009 (8.34%)
22 attacks to death: 40797 (7.24%)
23 attacks to death: 34291 (6.08%)
24 attacks to death: 27684 (4.91%)
25 attacks to death: 22073 (3.92%)
26 attacks to death: 16633 (2.95%)
27 attacks to death: 12393 (2.2%)
28 attacks to death: 9105 (1.62%)
29 attacks to death: 6275 (1.11%)
30 attacks to death: 4326 (0.77%)
31 attacks to death: 2932 (0.52%)
32 attacks to death: 1867 (0.33%)
33 attacks to death: 1249 (0.22%)
34 attacks to death: 812 (0.14%)
35 attacks to death: 472 (0.08%)

[NiteHawk]

The problem with adjusting AGI though is probably because races like Saurians really are already good when it comes to PVP due to both high STR and high AGI. Making AGI worth more helps lings out to where they should be, but then Saurians are OP and destroy.

The problem with adjusting END / HP per point lets say to counter high AGI so that HOs can combat saurians then, ends up being that lings get obviously left out, and then lings are being messed up.

I'm still not saying HO's should lose to Lings, there should be a gap where HOs kill em, but it doesn't need to be huge cause HOs' get the benefit of being able to chance kill much quicker. Aka you pick lower AGI and high STR, you pick a race that is random in fights more or less.

Honestly, though AGI per point could be maybe higher, I feel like it's the stats themselves causing the issues and an unbalanced races.

[daedroth]

Someone mentioned giving halflings a flat +X to dodge.
Introduce size. Smalls get a +X to dodge (gobby, ling, gnome). Could even be a variable individual to each race to increases chance of dodging and or chance of being hit (probably best with just the one though)?
But meh... I think this is already factored into AGL?

Honestly, though AGI per point could be maybe higher, I feel like it's the stats themselves causing the issues and an unbalanced races.

Possibly. Hard to balance though.
How to fix though... revise the races and increase variance of their stats?
Keep AGL as is, but add AGL to certain races?

[NiteHawk]

Someone mentioned giving halflings a flat +X to dodge.
Introduce size. Smalls get a +X to dodge (gobby, ling, gnome). Could even be a variable individual to each race to increases chance of dodging and or chance of being hit (probably best with just the one though)?
But meh... I think this is already factored into AGL?

Over complicated. It needs to be simple and easy to follow, having hidden variables suck. Lings aren't the only one that get the shaft, they are the extreme case though out of all of them.

How to fix though... revise the races and increase variance of their stats?

Possibly what I was thinking to help.

[JadeFalcon]

Ive skimmed this (long thread) so apologies if this has been asked:

What are your objectives in terms of battle outcomes? I mean, we know the results of any given stat combination, but what are the results that we would want? This isnt clear to me.

To give an example: I would say that a gnome ninja with normal stat allocation should lose 75% to a human ninja. Gnomes should win 75% if we are talking about enchanters.


Can we get such a matrix, of % victory, for different Classes/races?
Then we could work backwards to match stats to the outcomes we want.

[Lateralus]

I mean tbh the race balance here is a lot closer than it ever was in rok and that showed. It would be great to actually see what 25ers there are and what people have gotten to 25 recently.

Even with mr being touchy it caused somewhat of a rock paper scissor. Pure melee with under 15 wis usually beats melee with 19+ wis. Anything with -19 wis usually loses to caster. Caster loses to any melee with +19 wis.

With that said there are a few outliers.
Dwarf has highest hp pool and great mr so it's has an edge in melee while it also almost always beats casters (not only do casters struggle with the 20wis mr but they have to beat 1250+ hp). with huge amounts of hp pools my caster even struggles with half orc hp pool so dwarf is pretty impossible.

Halfling has the lowest hp / str of melee classes. it only has +1 agi on de and since agi is somewhat worthless there is not much point to make them for anything.

That said I don't think we are too far off maybe a slight agi increase or maybe an extra agi point for halfling and maybe take a look at dwarf wisdom?

As for mr I hope it doesn't become a 55/45 type thing. I admit now it's prob a 90% win over 10wis while it's a 10% win over 20wis which is a bit too much . I do feel if you put 0 points in wis you should lose most the time however maybe with 14 wis you should stand some chance but not much. Same with 23 wis I agree you should win most the time but with 20 wis you should probably lose sometimes.

I'd love to see the breakdown wis point wise. Say a 22int caster fighting a human knight with 10 to 23 wis and see % fight outcomes.


Hopefully we can find balance without losing too much of that rock paper scissor feel.