World Design Issue

[daedroth]

Also, how much of the story SHOULd be known?
The character will know some general knowledge (unless off course Seamore is a port city, which it sounds like, and they arrived on boat, even then theyd know something of where they were going, gotta have a reason for going there, as mentioned by Drasp).

The people of the cities would know some stuff. I remember someone mentioning interaticve comments like "did you hear [insert name here] got killed by [insernt monster here] sorta like the obituary thing. Well maybe people could make comments like "I hear they have opened up a lumber mill in canopia forest and the workers have been attacked by living trees!" etc.

But there would be stuff the players would need to find out through plaaying and uncovering plots.

[NiteHawk]

Also, how much of the story SHOULd be known?
The character will know some general knowledge (unless off course Seamore is a port city, which it sounds like, and they arrived on boat, even then theyd know something of where they were going, gotta have a reason for going there, as mentioned by Drasp).

The people of the cities would know some stuff. I remember someone mentioning interaticve comments like "did you hear [insert name here] got killed by [insernt monster here] sorta like the obituary thing. Well maybe people could make comments like "I hear they have opened up a lumber mill in canopia forest and the workers have been attacked by living trees!" etc.

But there would be stuff the players would need to find out through plaaying and uncovering plots.

Yeah, thats the biggest thing too. To be hidden by players so they discover and the original reason of hiding build.

There is going to be a quest system in game too, something like weekly, daily, one time quests would be a thing to help along the plot too. So you need to factor that in.

I'm not a lore kind of guy, I really like the wastelands for example, but I'm really trying to see about lore now anyways since it seems to be a big sell point.

[Satsujin]

Hello yes, I am the lore guy. I'm doing a thing, I'll post it when the thing is done. I'm a firm believer we can keep everything that's in game already, I just need to do my thing, and then we need to do a little bit of remapping.

...Okay, that's a lie, it may end up being a lot of remapping, it just depends on whether or not people like the thing when it's done.


This couldn't be more vague if I tried, sorry.

[Thoth]

Goddamit Chris I hate you and I hope I don't regret this.....*winces*....

Let's fix this before we continue then. We need a area plan for each area as I said, and a general world map.

It's difficult to speak up when everyone is doing their own thing. It isn't that we have been keeping to ourselves about this it's that communication between people has predominantly beein in CC and Skype IMs concerning things. I will be the first to admit for minor issues or fixes this needs to stop. Or atleast the convo needs to be posted for the rest of Build to see and comment as communication isn't steadily realtime for all of us. As to the communication itself...it is limited. We all think differently so it usually ends in not having resolved a whole bunch for fear of offense. Alot of our conversations end in "if someone can do this" or "So and so maybe can do this or someone else..." which makes things hard. Roles need to be assigned now. People need to know who they are and what they are doing in accordance with their strengths. I will comment more on this below.

So, I'll be the first person to say it's difficult to give critique on an area when a person takes pride in their work. I've experienced this first hand giving and receiving it back. I understand this and it makes it one of the more difficult parts of assembling areas and ideas together because everyone has their own idea of how they want to pursue. That said...that is why we have two leveling paths in development that are almost single-handedly assembled on both accounts.

After I posted my idea for the newer area/OAD that I wanted to work on we came to be at a standstill with how leveling paths should be created. So, what I think happened (some out of game on the forums and some in game in CC) was that basically we agreed on two leveling pathsish (A third was thought to be created to the North above Seymore which would be a more long term storied path that would have alot of main quests moving the world plot forward, not exclusively but only as a tool). After that I was confused as to how those two paths were to be assembled. Let's say that not counting Seamoor we had 3 towns stretching out to the eastish and 3 towns stretching out through the southish. Between those towns are a number of leveling areas, OADs, and minor tributaries leading to minor places of interest (hideouts, lakes, random cabins housing 3 blind ogres bent on killing you...and so on). Lat's contention was that the areas between towns should be assembled by numerous people within build because players enjoyed seeing different imaginations at work. Mine was that areas between towns (let's say there are 3 to 4 different areas between towns not counting the main road) that each area would have to have some sort of over-arching relation storywise that could literally lead you from one to the other and since it is easier for one person to keep track of a story than 2 or 3 or whatever that one person should do it per each in between set of areas. What is the best way to attain that I think? Descriptions. We have a severe short fall in how they should be looked at. This is a text based game. Reading is central to problem solving, unless you are bruteforcing the issue by trying any number of possibilities until you find the solution. People that play this are going to have to remember that the clues are in what we are writing. What makes me figure out the OAD? How do I know there is a key-lock to pass. How do I know how to pass it? It's worked into all those small parts of the game that either aren't fully incorporated yet or they are just remaining unused. I'll address this more below but only after we come back to how it is that a more unified structure should be formed.

I think one thing we never really did was first to use people to their strengths. Our mistake is we were waiting for someone to do it for us. Chris is busy so gtfo. And we have all stated it numerous times while in CC.

Lateralus is easily strong with numbers and balancing as well as building areas and files and so forth, by his own admittance his strong suit is not storylines and lore. Syon seems to show very strong ability with town building and shows a good grasp of the concepts but (and I hate saying this because it puts me at a level of exposure I am not comfortable with) I have seen some conversations he has had with Sat as well as having experienced them myself.....it is less like he is paying attention to the direction a person is looking to take an idea when they are asked for criticisms/opinions and more finds a way to conform the idea to his own thinking by making small adaptive measures only as minor input. If an idea is to take form to be a cohesive flowing idea with storyline and plot then areas may need to change pre-work. (I hated this idea in the beginning Chris....vehemently, but I understand it better now). So thrusting someone's map into a global map when it has not even been adapted to actually flow well is a bit too pre-emptive or say for example actually beginning work on an area without a detailed outline is the same. Satsujin is strictly lore, flow, and build. He is getting better with his files and such but he already knows for sure that equations numbers and anything to do with a balance leaves his head dithering. Kawasaki seems to be absorbing things incredibly, even when we don't know quite how to get there yet, and he spears forth having created the original town and also having rebuilt Dorgon's area. He has also been working with Sat and trying to find a way to bridge the gap between areas in a cohesive storyline as well as maintain art as best as he could have. More than a few of you work very fast which is also hugely awesome for the game and players.

All that noted above, then what should probably happen is that these outlines you speak of, (that Outlines split came either the day before or the day after I stepped away), should probably pass through the hands of a few people before even getting to the developer stage. If an area is going to be considered for entry into the game then the first thing should be a map and a story.

The map will help decide the future shape of the world and it needs to be decided where it is going to fit in terms of the world. Why does it fit there is the next question. It's part of the story which is why one needs to be created and alongside the map. Seamoor is a town amongst a Kingdom. It gives berth to many a person coming and going a few short years after a long war. Think of any post war fantasy story or game, which I am sure numerous people here have read/played, and it becomes a little easier to ponder why your area is there. My first area I chose to think of as a post war druid who lived peacefully untouched by ravages of war until it became desperate and he got conscripted by the war effort against the other kingdom to do terrible things. Terrible...just terrible things. (I thought of Backpack while writing that last line...no idea why). The tie in to major lore does not even have to be major. Tie it into a god. The war. A kingdom....anything. But your story just needs to have a useable plot point. This opens up the possibility of turning any area into an OAD, Quests, live action scripted invasion point, and numerous other possibilities that are possible pretty much right now.

After those things are agreed upon amongst let's say Lat for balance of files and area level and Sat (as well as one other person assumedly the person who is building the area or if it's Sat himself then one other to act as a sounding board but live on the forum to have all builder input) then an area can be built. The other possibility is that per area work can or should be split into two man teams. Some of us are number oriented some of us are story oriented. Mismatching a pair of people can help refine an area without all the in between nonsense. So let's say Lat and Sat worked together on a large area between a town which will have again let's say 3 to 4 different leveling areas/OADs then Sat could easily churn our stories and flavor texts for mobs with descrs for rooms too as well as anything else that requires the creative effort. Lat can do directionals/keys etc and create items and balance them while they both decide what mobs and items should actually DO to remain useful yet fun items that tie into area or world plot. As long as intercrossing is accepted among the two it would even be acceptable to see Sat question Lat on why an item gives +5 Chr instead of blah or Lat can ask Sat something that modifies the storyline for the set number of areas and adds a sense of immersion mechanic-wise. This is what cohesive work is. This is cooperation and working together. This is what we are missing. Having someone we can work with that provides dichotomy could probably make areas great, reduce workload per person, and prevent the need for future balancing. The downsides of that strategy is it needs a head of build and a third eye to offer outside consult that understands BOTH ends of the spectrum and that the work becomes a little slower since each person has their own real life obligations as well and can only work as best as they can to their schedule. The upside is that things get done and right the first time rather than devolving to where we are. On a positive note guise....we did it...we have areas in game we won the internet (channeling BP again sorry). So now it becomes a little easier to take the time to literally redo the areas by posting in Outlines per EVERY area that is in game in the Outlines bit and be ready to take criticisms and work on adaptions together....however that will happen be it from a partner or as a group. Chris you are probably going to be needed to make a final say as to how the Build dept is going to work even eventually (so you don't have to remain too involved now as you are codemonkeying) so that the Build dept can atleast begin heading in that direction.

It seems we all missed some of the more finer detailed things which make working on an area longer and more tedious which are the small things.

Keith makes a hugely valid point that there needs to be a world to follow. That said the world is created in the mechanics but flavored through the small things. Use of signs I have noticed to be cropping up (speaking of which signs should standout and be colored differently in a descr (green?) to make players aware there is more going on than meets the eye on this square). Signs help guide a player as to what is where. They don't need to be overused and also don't need conventional use. Signs can be use to point out directions for leveling paths, cities, leveling areas, OADs, or just offer hints and clues as well as just basic creepy flavor to the game (look sign...sign reads....Lrrrrr from the planet Omicron Persei 8 once conquered this realm and miserably deposed all the miserable "superior" lifeforms to single celled amoeba). Even the look item function in a description doesn't need the use of a sign as much as having the possibility to see a 'look star' in the sky above this square the communicates back to you telepathically because stars are awesome "A fiery death messenger rock child from your god shall be born in three days to wipe out all dwarven-kind from the underworld as a sacrifice to please their violent need for attention."

Useless NPC usage can accomplish the same measure as a sign can but can also offer more interaction. If responding to the three questions in the BS OAD was a possibility why is a minor conversation impossible? 'look weary traveler" "I just came from the mountains above and saw a fiery hailstorm rain down from the skies! "type look idiot for more" "Yes they rained down and these foul rocks whispered in my head as they did! It was horrible I have never experienced such pain!" "type you suck for more" " They whispered one word....just one...I think they are on a hunt as it sounded like a name..." "type look huh for more" "All I heard was...Renario...I wonder who that is....." NPCs are invaluable to adding flavor to a game and easy to adapt. Not to mention useable as keys and can even be made to go actively attacking very likely after a point of the conversation has been reached. Type "look gold satchel" which inadvertently makes you say (in regular cyan coloring to differentiate between player taking action with words and game doing it for you as flavor) GIMME ALL YOUR MONEY OLD MAN! which makes the old man attack as a regular mob. Even the things like look on say or look on say while in combat and so on can be hints at the next area of the game you may want to explore. Instead of casual references to battlecries (RAAAWWRRR!) maybe before the mob or mob boss dies he could say "Oh I look back upon my days as a young elf in Turenaya and weep for having not made different choices!" As a player for the first time seeing this I have no idea wtf Turenaya is but maybe this is a place I may want to go if it produced someone who ended up being such a powerful mob (let's say in this case that Turenaya is the next step on a leveling path or even on a diff leveling path altogether to create chaos in the player's choices of where to go next). This will help to create cross stories between leveling paths as well. It takes the story to a world view rather than a single path view.

Descriptions...now this is a major one with me. I like the idea of seeing a world in a description which is one of my crappy issues is that everything I write ends up being far too long. But I am no genius writer. That said descriptions can be used to guide a player in numerous directions even based on a few words. I am sure we all remember this one "There seems to be a mysterious force pushing you back" which only makes me want to go that way. Well if I can't then is there a breakaway wall. Is there a word in the description that helps me to realize push wall or pull lantern or search or maybe I should have a certain item on me while moving. Is there a trap that will hurt me? Did the room warn me ominously about this? "You have entered a room. Perfectly spherical in shape there are no exits and here you sit floating in the middle unaware of how you got here or how you will leave. There is a perfect dinging tone in the background repeating itself every six seconds sweetly lulling you into a deepened state of consciousness yet still aware of your surroundings. Incidentally, you find yourself wanting to hum along with the tone...." Any number of actions that can be created as emotes can be used as a key. Assuming /hum of course in this case....you don't even need to use it as a key as much as a trigger. Hum in this specific room can cause a mob spawn or appearance (this is all just an example of course) of an NPC that leads to another clue....etc. Even mob descriptions can offer this same flavor. Let's say Lat created a mob in Linwood that once worked for the Undead Commander in Sat's area. It isn't unreasonable. Lat's area is a dead town ransacked and constantly being ransacked by bandits. It isn't unheard of that a well trained thief or raider could have easily worked for the military. Or maybe the commander was just a leader of a rogue militant group that stole treasures as they ransacked the countryside during the war. They happen upon a crypt full of riches and one of them turns the commander undead solidifying the storyline. The rogues now on their own and run rampant because they are leaderless as they are afraid of zombies (who wouldn't be right?). That said either the undead commander descrip could include that light flavor or the raider/bandit could. "Once the leader of a roving militia the undead commander ran across bad luck and the wrong treasure one day turning him blah blah." You don't need a full story and mob descriptions do not need to specifically cater to what a mob looks like or how they attack or how afraid you should be of them on a scale of one to ten. Leaving the description open ended to a story they haven't read will either make a player wonder and go in search of or even maybe, and this is a nice but welcome stretch, goto the academia and find out if there is a history there.

This also brings up another good point. Simultaneously with an area creation there needs to be MORE storied integration which is the entire reason for the post. I think in building an area the story needs to be ready alongside the area to go into the academia. If it relates to the area, OAD, City or even crosses between leveling paths or if it creates more world lore it needs to be ready to be input into the academia period. Another VASTLY underused resource in Kaos was the academia. The academia should be a source for all knowledge. You can even leave hints for OADs in there or storylines of unknown lands (if you ever decide that a sky island or underworld would be a good addition) and myths. All these could point in directions for numerous things. It may make the academia more used and even a level of player integration to the game. As in to say a player can write a story concerning anything in the game and it gets passed off to Loremaster. Loremaster can review it and if it ties in well enough it can be inserted. This turns the academia into a tavern in some respect. It is no flying guarantee but it does add more importance to their existence. Otherwise what's the point?

There are more things that can be adapted based on what Chris is coding so I know alot of this is possible and alot of it is on build's side but imagine for a moment if you can have mobs that BS and hide and cast spells then all that needs to be done is imagine outside the purview of what a player can do to make the mob do it. Or from the opposite end imagine inside the purview of what a player can do to figure out what a player WILL do. Put mechanics and story aside for a moment and try to figure out what you would do if you reached an area that you could not go through. From a mechanical standpoint what would you look for (for those of us that see things through hard numbers) and from a story standpoint what would you look for (for those of us that imagined the numbers dancing on the page instead and doing things that dragons would do).

I still in what is possible concerning this game all it requires is the right structure of those who are putting it together, more close-knit teamwork with less side conversations (making communication impossible as a whole), and lastly actually reading and paying attention to the page rather than skimming.

TL;DR
If you can't read and critically comprehend without skimming the page then maybe you shouldn't be playing a text based game. I mean it. Gtfo.

[Satsujin]

...
......
Marry me.

I agree with every part of that, up to and including the part about me being stupid when it comes to numbers.

[Kruell]

I was lucky with Alura to have been made World Admin in the very early days of the project. I took what the creators had in mind and fleshed it out. Then I was able to direct the flow of content into the world so that the work fit into the world without having to break out a shoehorn or crowbar. With RoK, I was brought in pre-crash and had to rebuild most of Syndar. I had to look at areas and figure out a way to fit them into the lore. Changes were made to many popular areas to make them fit into a comprehensive world plan that spanned two servers. With the exception of Dragonspire and Gortyn, everything put in game during my time was consistent with the lore including making changes to existing areas so they did fit. Tanjir was going to cap that off with the rulers of Tanjir being the mythical "Lords of the West". DM and Mangi created the first two cities and area between them on Tanjir. Everything else that went in Tanjir was consistent with the world lore from the word go.

From my experience here are some suggestions. All areas have to be mapped out before they are built so they can be checked over for consistency with the world map and lore. You can have multiple people look the area over (doing this with OaD type areas is problematic) but ultimately you need one person who has the final say as to where the area goes, what changes have to be made, and even IF the area will go in game. I can't remember the number of areas that were proposed that I ended up telling them to scrap. It can hurt someone's feelings if you tell them their great idea is either not consistent with the area they want to place it, or it just won't work in the game. Whoever takes the role of leader should expect to be hated by many. Keith can tell the rest of you his experiences when he took over Build when I was gone. Trying to get creative, headstrong, and emotional people to work with each other and work within the constraints you put forth is difficult.

In short, you need a World Admin. You can make a head builder to coordinate lore and build but they need the authority to make unilateral changes to areas and monsters, to the point of being able to recommend dropping someone from build. There needs to be a series of tools in place so builders can compare their creations with those of similar levels. Guidelines need to be set and enforced. Someone also needs to be taking a macro view of the game to make sure there is balance for all classes/races/divinities.

With RoK there was a host of information out there in player created sites, that isn't so yet for EO. I've been so involved with games like this that I can test an area and the monsters very quickly. There are gaps right now where builders will need to go back and add in areas where creatures of certain divinities are available in specific level ranges. I got the feeling earlier that there was no master map. It was obvious that builders were working blind. Also, I think the Wasteland was put in before it was checked for balance and placement. Someone needs to lay out a comprehensive plan and make sure everyone follows it. I know there are people who can step up and do the necessary job. What needs to be decided is who can do the job without letting their ego overtake the position or their insecurity allow the builders to run over them.

[Lateralus]

I'd be totally fine working hand in hand with Evan on lead build I feel together we have the tools to do the job. Even if it's him on lead story and planning and me on content development, systems and balance.

Again I'm fine building whatever I just want to make it exciting I'm trying to build areas I would want to play. I've played a lot of games and also built some games that have done great commercially so I feel I have a good handle on that part and my track record should speak for itself content development. I feel like the areas in game are already quite a bit more dynamic and deep content wise than Rok areas ever were (most in part to new tools builds have thanks to Chris).

As I said before Canopia and the wastelands were built quickly so we had content for the players they lack story but it's content to test on. I plan on filling out that story but to me content was the priority otherwise we wouldn't have much at all for build.

As for the balance of the areas it's a work in progress. Balance isn't going to be perfect when all the game systems are not in. I know you were able to balance pretty well rayth but you had history and a whole sample size to work with. We honestly don't know what stuff will be like at level 25 (hell we didn't know what stuff would be like at level 15 until I built the area). This is why we are testing and why I'm modifying monsters items rooms values etc every day based on feed back. This is why specific feedback on the forums is so important. For things just to be perfect first try with an unfinished skill and monster system is silly.

I noticed there wasn't content so I put it there. Again I'm sorry about the lack of story but maybe some of the other build can help me out and fill in the gaps.

[Cynic]

In short, you need a World Admin. You can make a head builder to coordinate lore and build but they need the authority to make unilateral changes to areas and monsters, to the point of being able to recommend dropping someone from build. There needs to be a series of tools in place so builders can compare their creations with those of similar levels. Guidelines need to be set and enforced. Someone also needs to be taking a macro view of the game to make sure there is balance for all classes/races/divinities.

With RoK there was a host of information out there in player created sites, that isn't so yet for EO. I've been so involved with games like this that I can test an area and the monsters very quickly. There are gaps right now where builders will need to go back and add in areas where creatures of certain divinities are available in specific level ranges. I got the feeling earlier that there was no master map. It was obvious that builders were working blind. Also, I think the Wasteland was put in before it was checked for balance and placement. Someone needs to lay out a comprehensive plan and make sure everyone follows it. I know there are people who can step up and do the necessary job. What needs to be decided is who can do the job without letting their ego overtake the position or their insecurity allow the builders to run over them.

[daedroth]

About the signage... that would definetly need to be carefully implemented. You dont want to lead people by the nose, people should read and think (and this is ironic coming from me, ive got really lazy in this regard). Too many games with Quest markers now... might as well just skip the quest and give them the reward. When I were a lad, I used my brain a lot more, I read things carefully and thought when playing games; it was far more rewarding... but yeh, ive got lazy

Dfeinelty sounds like there needs to be a top man to whip the others into shape (metaphorically speaking off course.. well.. maybe)!
But who would want that thankless job?

[NiteHawk]

From my experience here are some suggestions. All areas have to be mapped out before they are built so they can be checked over for consistency with the world map and lore. You can have multiple people look the area over (doing this with OaD type areas is problematic) but ultimately you need one person who has the final say as to where the area goes, what changes have to be made, and even IF the area will go in game. I can't remember the number of areas that were proposed that I ended up telling them to scrap. It can hurt someone's feelings if you tell them their great idea is either not consistent with the area they want to place it, or it just won't work in the game. Whoever takes the role of leader should expect to be hated by many. Keith can tell the rest of you his experiences when he took over Build when I was gone. Trying to get creative, headstrong, and emotional people to work with each other and work within the constraints you put forth is difficult.

What needs to be decided is who can do the job without letting their ego overtake the position or their insecurity allow the builders to run over them.

Totally agree here. 8)