New ideas for alterations of races and classes

[Honzo]

What I am proposing to change here based on initial statement, comments and what I feel myself.

Racial:
Dwarf: +1 int, +2ac.. Also will give them a 10% cooldown bonus I think.
Elemental: +2% resist, +5 more damage negated (It's set damage not percentage but yeah.)
Elf: +2% resist, 15% fizzle reduction.
Gnome: +5% resist, -1 end, -1 stat point, 10% more mana.
Goblin: +2% resist
HE: +3% resist, 10% fizzle reduction.
Ling: +1% resist, 0.5 stamina second speed bonus. (to test anyways.)
Human: 5% fizzle reduction.



Classes:
Barb: -10MR bonus, 5% less dodge rate (up by 2.5%), 10% more HP (2.5% more), +5% rage damage bonus, -1% less per rage, instead of 2%.
Druid: -8.5% dodge rate. Adjust morph to compensate for the loss.This equates to about 2AGI.
Monk: 5% dodge rate (down -2.5), however, roundhouse deals 2.5x damage now. Meditate skill.Similar to druids but self only.
Necro: +2.5% more MR Bonus. (Leech was adjusted recently, plus with the new skill you should be draining more already.)
Paladin: 5% less dodge in /protect, but 5% more MR, so will balance itself out to 10%/10%.
Ranger: +1% MR bonus
Sorc: Adjust starting attacks.
Thief: Going to add duel wield. They'll do 20% less damage then assassins in the typical case.



Maybe +1 attacks to all. I feel like it should be a good limit there. I'm still wondering how people feel about a extra attack at higher levels, aka everyone would get +5 attacks at level 25. (obv ninjas get +6). Worried about damage though but we'll see. If no one comments about it I will attempt to add this.

This is based on the information provided, feedback, and my own knowledge. Thanks.

To be frank, I think Gnomes need all the help that they can get at this point. Backsledding them into lower END with 1 less point doesn't seem like it'll help much. Not only will casters have to go to 20 wisdom for achieving a +1 int but they will also lose hp when they are squishy as hell and low agi! I always felt like gnomes would benefit a lot from 22 Agility. They are small like halflings afterall.

Can dwarves get that extra strength point back? Dwarves are strong and stout, so I get why the 19 agi. I guess I'm just used to what I have seen dwarves like in fantasy. Strong shorties with lots of endurance but clumsy! haha.

What does Meditate do exactly for monks? And for thieves, what happened to the trap mechanic? Isn't giving them a higher BS pretty much making them the same thing as an assassin? They'll still kill most people in two BS's like Slayers right?

I wish that something more flavorful could come up for Humans. I RARELY see them or half elves. What if you allowed Humans to get the +1 stat for FREE? I think that'd be an interesting perk to them and open up their stats to be even more attractive to every class!(I still think it'd be rare to pick human)

The halfling idea is very interesting, getting that advantage early on doesn't seem gamebreaking but could really be helpful in pvp. The only case I see this being an issue with is Druid, but I guess that could be one of the "shticks" of being a ling druid.

Other than that, the class changes to Druid seem like it'd hurt a lot. I haven't tested them at 25 though so I'm unsure. I love the sorc changes(make sure to do necro too, right?) on the attacks, and I like the Paladin change too! Not sure about the Monk one simply because of the RH dmg increase but it may be necessary. They seem to be in a great spot right now imo so maybe just a slight dodge nerf first to see if it hits them super hard before you compensate? After all you did say they were gaining a meditate buff? I guess to make up for the tiny class defense nerf? I am not sure how fond I am of 5 attacks though. Seems like it could be abused by certain classes. I liked when Druids were the only ones to get 5 attacks if that means anything? lol.


My personal want is to improve the lesser played races like gnome, human, half elf, dwarves. Seems people only want to go with big agi or big strength(Usually both!).

[FrostSlayer]

I don't agree with the extra attack. Save that kind of thing for when the level cap gets raised at least. You can acomplish the same thing with adjusting agi and base hit rate and dodge couldn't you? For example, 5x attacks at 20% chance would be the same as 4x attacks at 25% chance.

Monks with 2.5x roundhouse, those double roundhouse rounds will be pretty intense, perhaps too intense. They already have an extra attack on everyone and deal a ton of damage. 2 roundhouses @ 2.5x plus 3 normal attacks at 1x is 8x, just like slayer damage?

I agree with honzo, I think the races that aren't being played need a buff, there's a reason why no one is rolling them. As folder said, we spent a long time balancing things out, these additions are going to mess a lot of that up I would think.

Why don't we just combine thief and assassin into one class? Depending on that stats you choose will determine how the class is played. If thieves are getting dual wield, are sins gonna get traps? What is the point of thieves at 25? Stealing gold? Small drop rate bonus? Otherwise they are just a weak assassin that can't track.

Everyone wants to do more damage, dodge more, etc but there has to be a better way. Can there be more ways to get more dodge/hit rate/damage outside of being a certain class or agi? Maybe items or talents or something that allows a little more customizaton. Why can't we continue to earn exp past 25, and get certain perks for our class at an extremely slow rate. Once I hit 25, I hated killing mobs. They were just an annoyance to me at that point. If I want to spec my slayer to hit more, dodge more, block more, auto sneak for longer, have more hp etc couldn't that be an option and allow everyone to be unique.

Side note: can us saurians have our armor back? I miss it.

[NiteHawk]

Saurians are okay as they are.

Ling - We can always test the ling and if it doesn't work, revert it. I don't see many lings being played right now cause other classes are just useful in general. Is there actually people using lings often? I don't really see it atm?

Dwarf - I'm not sure about both though, but 18 int could work. 20/19/23/18/18/16 seem like okay stats. With 21 str I think it overshadows alot of classes to pick a loss of one AGI over high end and higher str. I think it should be either 21/19/23/16/18/16 or 20/19/23/18/18/16. I'm honestly thinking the +1 to str and thats it would be better then +2 int.

Elemental - Elementals getting +1 agi instead would probably be okay.

Gnome - We can leave END as it is. People feel like it would gimp it too much, that's OK then.

Barb - I'm confused, they will dodge more they are now, did you miss read it maybe? They have 7.5% negative dodge atm, will drop to 5%.

Druid - Out of morph. They will get +1 agi point to compensate for it. Right now they get -1 agi out of morph, not -2. Which is only about 2% difference. This won't effect in morph. So no one has to worry about that.

Monk - Can leave monks, people seem to think 2.0x is enough. That's cool. Mediate would heal out of combat. Not as good as food, but still a little bonus. I guess if we aren't adding the bonus I'll not nerf their dodge agi too and leave it at 7.5%. Sound good?

Paladin - Well during protect 5% agi on 22 agi is 1.1 agi loss right now. 10% would be 2.2agi, or about 5% less dodge on paper overall. I'm not sure on this yet.

Sorc - Means they get more starting attacks at lower levels.

Thief - Yeah I can fix stealing. I still don't see a reason for them not to DW though. 3.5x isn't terrible, obviously still lower then a slayer with 1, but at least they can PVP then too and defend themselves. I can still make stealing give more EXP, that is okay too. But I need some calculations. I need to know how much you steal, etc etc. The fail rate I mean, you can't steal on monsters 5 levels higher than you, if you're doing that then yeah you will struggle more. We can lower it, but I'd love some stats too on this. Technically I wanted them to use BOWS but the problem is that BOWS are geared towards rangers completely, and they completely make them overpowered if Thieves can use them. I can make it script wise reduce damage, but you won't see it on the AP side of things, which blows. Could make a crossbow but I mean, they'd be weaker, and that doesn't make sense either. Again please someone give me some info on stealing XP wise at least.

Obviously traps are still a thing for thieves, but it's a thing that takes alot of time, these are quick changes.

We won't give the +1 attack. We will reserve it for level 25-50.

Humans having the +1 stat for free, I'm not sure. What's the point of picking HE then? You kind of unbalance other races. Maybe there is another option or idea tha won't shadow other races.

So changes now:


Racial:
Dwarf: +1 str OR +2 int or maybe +1 str and +1 int, +2ac.. Also will give them a 10% cooldown bonus. (Pick either str or int here and we'll go with that, i think both is too powerful though? ) I'm worried that +1 str and +1 int will make dwarfs more useful than other races around it. Can someone test this?
Elemental: +2% resist, +1 agi. Leaving the spell absorption the same.
Elf: +2% resist, 15% fizzle reduction.
Gnome: +5% resist, 10% more mana. They will be the highest MR based with high mana.
Goblin: +2% resist
HE: +3% resist, 10% fizzle reduction.
Ling: +1% resist, 0.5 stamina second speed bonus. (If the speed bonus is bad we can think up something else unless tons of people disagree.)
Human: 5% fizzle reduction. (Something else? Someone suggest)

Classes:
Barb: -10MR bonus, +2.5% more dodge rate (sitting at -5% now), 10% more HP (2.5% more), +5% rage damage bonus, -1% agi less per rage, instead of 2%.
Druid: -3.5% agi dodge rate (-8.5 agi loss total). Which is about 5% on paper. THEY WILL GET THE AGI BACK IN MORPH. (+1 agi to cat and bear)
Monk: Meditate skill. Similar to druids but self only.
Paladin: 5% less dodge in /protect, but 5% more MR, so will balance itself out to 10%/10%. (this ones still pending.)
Ranger: +1% MR bonus (shrug)
Sorc: Adjust starting attacks. (Aka they gain attacks a little faster.)
Thief: DW or something else. Traps are a thing, but they will take a longer time to code. Fix /steal XP, take a look at fail rate.


With all the resist increases I'm making penetration 2% higher too. Right now a Gnome Enchanter with 22 wis gets 75% resists. with the changes, they would get 77%. This drops it back down to 75%. It just scales it a little differently, but based on the numbers I'm looking at should be good.

[Folder]

Racial:
Dwarf: +1 str OR +2 int or maybe +1 str and +1 int, +2ac.. Also will give them a 10% cooldown bonus. (Pick either str or int here and we'll go with that, i think both is too powerful though? ) I'm worried that +1 str and +1 int will make dwarfs more useful than other races around it. Can someone test this?
Elemental: +2% resist, +1 agi. Leaving the spell absorption the same.
Elf: +2% resist, 15% fizzle reduction.
Gnome: +5% resist, 10% more mana. They will be the highest MR based with high mana.
Goblin: +2% resist
HE: +3% resist, 10% fizzle reduction.
Ling: +1% resist, 0.5 stamina second speed bonus. (If the speed bonus is bad we can think up something else unless tons of people disagree.)
Human: 5% fizzle reduction. (Something else? Someone suggest)

Classes:
Barb: -10MR bonus, +2.5% more dodge rate (sitting at -5% now), 10% more HP (2.5% more), +5% rage damage bonus, -1% agi less per rage, instead of 2%.
Druid: -3.5% agi dodge rate (-8.5 agi loss total). Which is about 5% on paper. THEY WILL GET THE AGI BACK IN MORPH. (+1 agi to cat and bear)
Monk: Meditate skill. Similar to druids but self only.
Paladin: 5% less dodge in /protect, but 5% more MR, so will balance itself out to 10%/10%. (this ones still pending.)
Ranger: +1% MR bonus (shrug)
Sorc: Adjust starting attacks. (Aka they gain attacks a little faster.)
Thief: DW or something else. Traps are a thing, but they will take a longer time to code. Fix /steal XP, take a look at fail rate.

Dwarf: I don't think there are any melee dwarves out there, are there? I think +1 str should help that, and I was just thinking that with 1-2 more int they can possibly make tanky healers. At 17 int they are a maybe and at 18 I think they are definitely viable. Could be too high though. 21 19 23 18 20 16 sounds strong so maybe 17 fits better.
Elemental : With the agi they will make fitting druids and better clerics, I like it.
Elf: Good.
Gnome : Good.
Goblin : Good.
HE: I think stat wise they are fine, they are just kinda boring like humans. Nothing stands out you know? Perhaps some racial skill is what they need.
Ling: My main is ling and half my alts are too lol. Maybe I'm in the minority. I will say that against 1200+hp characters I'm likely losing but I'm not sure they need anything. I still think the stamina bonus is very strong.
Human: Same as HE. Stats are fine but nothing stands out. Mehhh I need to think about these more.
Barb: I think I misread, this sounds good because they were basically bad compared to ninjas and I think it's fine for them to take more magic damage.
Druid: Sounds fine since it's out of morph.
Monk: Ok.
Pally: Still think it sounds too harsh of a penalty for doing what they are good at. Pallys have the lowest damage output of any melee, right? Maybe bards compare? Point is /protect is what makes them a thing and then we punish them for using it. The 5% is noticeable, 10% sounds ouch.
Ranger: Shrug as well. I think Rangers seem fine but some input from someone actually playing one would be good.
Sorc: Makes sense, ok.
Thief: Sounds good, I like the bow idea more than DW if you want to increase their dmg potential. DW is just a copy of slayer, if it's a bow we can spread bows out more too. Maybe something like equip both, have the bow be the sneak/ambush attack and then use the dagger for regular attacks? Traps are cool, and fixing steal XP is good. Separate topic for that.

[Honzo]

Dwarf: I don't think there are any melee dwarves out there, are there? I think +1 str should help that, and I was just thinking that with 1-2 more int they can possibly make tanky healers. At 17 int they are a maybe and at 18 I think they are definitely viable. Could be too high though. 21 19 23 18 20 16 sounds strong so maybe 17 fits better.

I like 21 19 23 17 19 16 or even if you feel like there should be another stat penalty dwarves with their magic resistance could probably go to 21 19 22/23 16/17 18 16. Not sure Dwarves are fancied for intelligence anyways. May as well play an Elemental at that point. I dont think healers are gonna be melee'ing like in RoK.

Elemental : With the agi they will make fitting druids and better clerics, I like it.

I don't like the agi +1 myself because they have a natural 23 stat. If lowered to 22 I could see it but its possible druid imbalance.

Elf: Good.
Gnome : Good.
Goblin : Good.

Elf/Goblin seem in great spots. Can we just give gnome 23 int already? They aren't being played for a reason. Squishy/can't dodge/outclassed by other races. I think the reason Guards are in check is for this very reason. A guard and gnome caster is very deadly. It makes you take out 1.5 people instead of 2. I think the point of nerfing guard while protecting is that it doesnt feel like you're constantly never getting anywhere since they would never get hit AND can heal on top of stoneskin/etc.

Ling: My main is ling and half my alts are too lol. Maybe I'm in the minority. I will say that against 1200+hp characters I'm likely losing but I'm not sure they need anything. I still think the stamina bonus is very strong.
Human: Same as HE. Stats are fine but nothing stands out. Mehhh I need to think about these more.

I like shorties myself. Lings need something but Im not sure what it is. Ive always envisioned them as the DODGE race. Would it be insane to give them a dodge boost? relatively minor but I think even DND gives a dodge bonus to halflings. Interesting concept. could increase EVERY classes survivability, even casters. As far as HE goes...I agree that the need something special. What about bumping their Charisma to 22, lowering their endurance to 18 and giving them a "Magical Attunement" bonus for some magic resistance to lighten up the load on their Wisdom? Elves are magical, humans are not. They can gain the ability through hybridization.

Barb: I think I misread, this sounds good because they were basically bad compared to ninjas and I think it's fine for them to take more magic damage.
Druid: Sounds fine since it's out of morph.
Monk: Ok.

Druid adjustment seems interesting, barbarian thing I misread as well. I agree with them taking more magic dmg but I feel like a zerkers dmg should be ABOVE monks. Monks are about discipline and precision where barbarians are wild and reckless right? For monk I would still do -2.5% dodge but that's just because it feels like they still need an adjustment. They are GREAT still. Maybe too good. Seems like it'd be an easy revert regardless.

Pally: Still think it sounds too harsh of a penalty for doing what they are good at. Pallys have the lowest damage output of any melee, right? Maybe bards compare? Point is /protect is what makes them a thing and then we punish them for using it. The 5% is noticeable, 10% sounds ouch.
Ranger: Shrug as well. I think Rangers seem fine but some input from someone actually playing one would be good.
Sorc: Makes sense, ok.
Thief: Sounds good, I like the bow idea more than DW if you want to increase their dmg potential. DW is just a copy of slayer, if it's a bow we can spread bows out more too. Maybe something like equip both, have the bow be the sneak/ambush attack and then use the dagger for regular attacks? Traps are cool, and fixing steal XP is good. Separate topic for that.

Pally nerf is balance, I get it. Rangers to me felt like they were stat locked. They needed TOO many stats. The magic resist boost is probably going to help a lot. Maybe for Rangers though they could just use something that gave more clarity on taming/capturing and the usefulness of Charisma.
Sorc/Necro: attack adjustment! YASSS!

Thief: The bow idea is very interesting and I actually like it a lot. Take away their backstab completely and just give them Bows? I really hope you don't give them backstab with bows though because that would really suck for rangers and wouldn't make sense as to why they couldn't do it. Upping their dmg, let them steal and hide, just no backstab. They will use it more evasively than offensively(assassin). However if you give them bows and traps then I'm not sure why the Ranger is in the game. Rangers and traps are synonymous I'd hope haha since they can use them to capture the wild. Maybe those could be abilities they share? The idea of being able to do 1 ambush with a bow then use daggers for regular attack is very interesting as well. Could it be coded as only allow one "deadly shot(ambush)" per 4 stamina so it isn't used multiple times in a round?

[Folder]

But gnomes are being played as casters. I would wager by far most sorcs are gnomes, and I've seen a gnome priest as well. Now they aren't being used for melee but they aren't really intended for that. I don't see why they need a boost?

Healers won't be meleeing, but the point is to hopefully make melee dwarves viable as well as them possibly being used for clerics/pallys.

I'm basing my opinion about /protect on my experience so far. I don't even like guarding someone in a pvp fight right now at 5%, at 10% I'm going to want to do it even less. 10% is huge, that's like 3-4 agi and would make my halfling feel like an orc...gross. Do people really feel guards are a problem? I get dumpstered in moshes as is, not sure I see the need to nerf dodge more than it is. Maybe others have had difference experiences though.

Lings are the dodge race already, that's their 23 agi thing.

[Honzo]

But gnomes are being played as casters. I would wager by far most sorcs are gnomes, and I've seen a gnome priest as well. Now they aren't being used for melee but they aren't really intended for that. I don't see why they need a boost?

Survivability vs Dmg output. I guess it just makes sense to me? The squisher you are the more dmg you should be able to do, the tankier the less dmg. It just seems like a standard checks/balances right? Pretty much in every game I've ever played its been this design. Mages rarely tank but they are often high dmg/low health. Would 23 int REALLY hurt anybody since you can already round a gnome on the most popular characters? They already have 21 agility too on top of weak end.

Thats my reasoning specifically though. ^_^ Thanks for raising the question. I should've explained before.

Lings are the dodge race already, that's their 23 agi thing.

Not really because you can +1 a Saurian or a Drakeblood. The stats end up BETTER than a halflings for the most part. So its either a 24 agi 17 end ling with low wisdom or a 23 agi saurian with 19 end with low wisdom. See my point? I think maybe the +1 thing fucks up the stats a lot. Would it be too big of a change to REVERSE that option? In my opinion it'd help balance the races a METRIC FUCKTON.

[Lateralus]

Mostly agree with changes although why do pallys even need more mr? As far as I'm concerned they are pretty much immune to casters as is? I do think they should pay the price for protecting tho. I know they are easier to hit while protecting but it doesn't seem casters get an advantage against them while they are protecting just melee?

Giving elemental an extra agi really puts them a step up in my book. Already have the best hp and wis for casters as is.

If you are going to give elemental an extra agi I think gnomes should get an extra int like suggested by honzo. They really should stand a part on damage since their defense is pretty bad will be lowest agi of caster races and already had lowest hp (225 less that elementals!)


Ohh when do druids get charm or tree summon?

And sorcs float should make monsters stop from dragging

[Folder]

I dunno about float but invis should stop mobs from dragging I'd think.

Pallys certainly don't need more MR, but I also don't think they need less dodge. At some point it's not worth guarding and its better to just heal people and that seems like it defeats the whole purpose. If a pally loses 10% dodge then the intended target of an attack would be dodging more than them so they may as well heal the target instead. Seems to me there's not much reason to protect a class with heavy armor or a shield at that point, and arguably no reason to protect a sorc with ss either.

Gnomes already do the most damage of any caster. If people feel, and can provide some data to back it up, that caster damage is low then ok sure. But they do top damage now, adding more damage just because seems weird to me (if anything I think 22 agi sounds better on gnomes than 23 int). If we think Ele doesn't need an extra agi that's fine. I just don't see many Ele casters running around and I'd guess it's because of the low agi.

[Honzo]

Gnomes already do the most damage of any caster. If people feel, and can provide some data to back it up, that caster damage is low then ok sure. But they do top damage now, adding more damage just because seems weird to me (if anything I think 22 agi sounds better on gnomes than 23 int). If we think Ele doesn't need an extra agi that's fine. I just don't see many Ele casters running around and I'd guess it's because of the low agi.

If they are the WORST physical they should be the BEST magical. What constitutes the best though? Just the intelligence score? Doesn't seem right to me. This game is a combination of stats to be good - ALWAYS AGILITY/ENDURANCE/(X STAT, STR FOR PHYS, INT FOR MAGIC). You yourself even said that Elves have pretty much replaced Gnomes. Why not go 22 int Elf and have better agi, endurance, and same wisdom? You just lose 1 int but gain tons of survivability. You just cant assume that because it can deal the most dmg its overpowered, it has to LIVE first to do the dmg.

Giving elemental an extra agi really puts them a step up in my book. Already have the best hp and wis for casters as is.

Definitely something to fear, I forgot they had huge endurance. Healers are generally powerful because of mana, not because of int. Then again I don't know how important healing efficiency(mana management) is in a game like this since most fights are short skirmishes. It does feel like they could use something though.

Pallys certainly don't need more MR, but I also don't think they need less dodge. At some point it's not worth guarding and its better to just heal people and that seems like it defeats the whole purpose. If a pally loses 10% dodge then the intended target of an attack would be dodging more than them so they may as well heal the target instead. Seems to me there's not much reason to protect a class with heavy armor or a shield at that point, and arguably no reason to protect a sorc with ss either.

Forgot about this as well, I think he's right. Why do they need MORE MR when they are already gonna be beefy with higher wisdom? That being said, I guess it's possible this is a buff to those paladins that went MORE intelligence and LESS wisdom for better heals and worse mana/MR.

I was talking to Folder about Guards and Cavs earlier. Is there some way that you could consolidate the guard mechanic in to ONE class(Cav) to open up more of a Holy Warrior role for the paladin? In my opinion it makes sense given that they get extra hp and can taunt already. It'd just give them an ability to solidify them as the official TANKER role. It was pointed out that 4 classes can heal. So 1 main healer, the cleric, and 3 hybrids (Bard/Druid/Paladin). Could lower the cav dmg and buff up the Paladin dmg by perhaps adding a HOLY SMITE spell or something like that which could increase X amounts of attacks/rounds(Think old druid morph, gained power from your diety instead though for a short time and lose it after a while) and transfer the 2 hander capability over to paladins.

This game very much wants the trinity. Yes, I know that hybrid can heal for minor amounts but Clerics are the only ones who can sustain massive healing of a party. By allowing Cavs to become the tank class it can finally feel conceptually correct. It seems thats the direction you've been pushing them in anyways. Just a few ideas to mull over. ^_^ Thanks again yall!